The Shot Heard Around the World

If this is a double post, I'm very sorry. I have an old Computer. I don't want to waste too much space but as I looked at your article regarding SICKO, I can tell we agree and if I judge a man by what he says then, Mr. James Clay Fuller you seem to be good writer, maybe a good man too. I cried many times during the movie SICKO because it was too real for me. I hope we see some more of those 20,000 real stories that other people have sent in to Michael Moore because I believe this is just the tip of the iceberg. SICKO revelation resurrects real Twilight Zone nightmares. I digress alot so let me say the rest of this my way. 
 
My wife,who is 64, was real sick last Novermber 2006 Flu season. She wouldn't eat, vomited, had a fever and aches and pains, and was bed ridden for 2 straight days. I gave her asprine and juices for the only cure I knew but she was getting worse. She humbly asks me on the 3rd day to race her by ambulance to our local hospitol, The Tampa General Hospitol, Tampa-FL. Instead I drive her myself at noon time to the Emergency Room. Good Grief, the place seemed to be a pig sty but I wasn't there to judge, so I handed over my wife's Blue Cross card to the receptionist and filled out the intake form quick questions for my wife. The receptionist told me to take my wife in to the emergency waiting area and put her in a seat and someone will get to her as soon as possible. I took my wife in to the crowded, packed area where we found the last seat available. I couldn't help but wonder where was the next person coming in going to wait at- on the floor? My wife said she was in twice the pain now because she was sitting up. I felt very sorry for her. I looked at my watch and realized I had to get to work. I hesitated but it seemed okay to think about work now. I told my wife listen honey, I'm going to work. They will take much better care of you than I can here. Here is your cell phone. When they finish with you whether its 2 minutes after I leave or 2 hours, don't worry. Call me at work and I can leave and bring you right back home immediately. Do you understand me? My wife nodded yes and took her cell phone. Then I went and I worked my whole 8 hour shift but my wife never called me. I called her up when my shift ended. After many rings, I can barely hear my wife's voice in the weakest tone I ever heard her speak in, "hello?" she says. 'Hi baby, where are you at home?', I ask. "no. I'm still here waiting for them to see me." wife says. Then I say, " What? you mean they need to see you again?" wife says, "no, they haven't seen me at all." I say, "NOT AT ALL? Who has taken your temperture and blood pressure then?" wife says, "no one. Please just come and take me back home if they're not going to see me. It hurts to be seated. I want to lay back in bed." I'm sadden and emotional now. I tell wife, 'honey. I swear to God I'll be there in 5 minutes!" I get there in 2 minutes probably, and it is just like my wife says, she is there practically alone now so there's no way the stoic staff could not see her. I go to her and hear her tiny weeping as I look at her. I say to my wife, "Let's take you home honey." So with as much dignity as our condition allowed we quietly left just as we entered and the clueless staff never spoke to us the whole time we came and walked away. What savages. Now, we go back home and my wife feels she is going to die and now I start to believe it too. I give her juice and lay her down and wait to see what will happen next. Then I get mad and say enough is enough. I get us dressed and rush us to the airport and take the first moring flight from Tampa to Boston. 4 hours later we arrive in Boston and I rush my wife in to the New England Medical Center Emergency Room by noon time. The NEMC is immaculate by i'm not there to judge. There waiting room has barely anyone in it and I tell their receptionist my ordeal. Within minutes, MINUTES, they have my wife back in a private emergency room bed, there are doctors and nurses and medical staff all around hooking her up to IV's and runnings tests for many hours. This time I don't leave my wife's side for a second.

Guest

The Shot Heard Around the World

mpmolinar...thanks for the comment. Your story is very sad but not uncommon. It seems to me that all systems in this country are failing. The educational system, medical systems, protections for workers, etc. Sounds like NEMC is better than some others, but not everyone has access to the good medical facilities. Best of luck to you and your wife.

Guest

CONSTANTLY KICKED OUT OF HOSPITAL EMERGE

MY INSURANCE REFUSED TO PAY MY MEDICAL BILLS THEREFORE I'M BEING CONSTANTLY KICKED OUT OF HOSPITAL EMERGENCY ROOMS WHEN EVER I'M BEING STRUCK WITH EPILEPTIC SEIZURE?  
Micheal Moore, Thanks for exposing the criminal industrial complex, "health" institutions, insurance mafias & the corrupt government's complicity & incompetence in REFUSING to serv the American people, when they fall victims to UNFORTUNATE PREDICAMENTS. I wonder how many people have died under these false messiahs. Some of us lived for years under these criminal's unholy trinity, refused to be treated for a deadly menace after paying our insurance premiums & taxes all our lives. But why? 
http://www.youtube.com/MySeizures 
Ghebre Huwarshek 
Ghebrehuwarshek@yahoo.com

http://www.youtube.com/myseizures

Guest

Money for War vs Medicine

Excellent article Rosemary. Ultimately the problem with the US health system is one of MONEY. Only the prosperous can readily afford the excellent medical care available in America. The Bush Administration priorities are for KILLING Asian Women and Children - the post-invasion excess deaths (avoidable deaths, deaths than did not have to happen) in the Occupied Iraqi and Afghan Territories now total 3.4 million, mostly Women and Children and largely due to US and US Alliance war crimes (chiefly non-supply of life-sustaining requisites demanded unequivocally of Occupiers by the Geneva Convention). The accrual cost (i.e. the long-term committed cost) of the Bush War on Terror is now $2.5 TRILLION according to former World Bank Chief Economist and 2001 Economics Nobel Laureate US Professor Joseph Stiglitz (Columbia) and his colleague Professor Linda Bilmes (Harvard)(see my article \"The Cost of War\" on MWC News).  
 
That $2.5 TRILLION that the Bush Administration has committed to killing Arab, Muslim, Asian and non-European Women and Children (rather than saving the lives of Americans) corresponds to $2,500,000 million/300 million Americans = $8,333 for every American Man, Woman and Child (it would have covered a lot of medical costs and medical insurance).  
 
18,000 deaths /year corresponds to 7 x 18,000 = 126,000 avoidable American deaths due to the absence of access to proper health care under 7 years of Bush. That $2.5 TRILLION accordingly corresponds to $2,500,000 million/0.126 million = about $20 million for EACH of those Americans that Bush America has allowed to die because of the Bush-ite greed for OIL (or whatever) and their obscene commitment to a bloody War on Asian Women and Children. 
 
With that money each of those American Bush victims could have bought a Personal Luxury Health Farm on top of getting life-saving medical interventions.

http://mwcnews.net/content/view/1375/247/

Guest

Medical Reflections...

Firstly, thanksto Rosemarie for posting her review of "SiCKO". I finally was able to see the movie last night. I found it to be very well done and pretty mucch right on the mark (had me in tears a couple of times). As a physician for more than 30 years, I have watched our health care system crumbling about us on a daily basis. Things cannot continue as they have much longer. Except for our Corporatist Rulers (the main reason we have the system that we do) very few people will be able to access the system in the near future. In short, we have an unsustainable health care system that is designed to maximize corporate profits - another phrase for bleeding the patient until they are dry. "Use 'em up. Throw 'em out. Move on to the next pool of slave labor!" - Amerika, Inc., running at full tilt...  
 
My only quibble with the movie centers on portraying now-Senator Clinton's universal health efforts as laudatory. Most people do not realize that virtually every aspect of her plans have been implemeted by Dems and Repubs since she and her husband put a public smile on the facade of Amerika during their tenure in office (corporate policy throughout their reign was nearly as murderous and larcenous as the present Ruling Junta). All of the reforms - all of the fixes - all of the great words about helping the "poor" and "elderly" - ALL will be designed and implemented to further corporate interests and increase bottom lines. 
 
Does anyone really think that the United States of Amerika can and will create a system like the English or Canadians or French or Cubans have? Any such creation would have the heart and soul of Big Oil, Big Pharma and Big Gov. Furthermore, such a system would exhibit the caring and loving nature of the IRS, the "Defense" Department, and Homeland Security, just to mention a few of our beloved institutions. 
 
Thanks, too, to Dr. Polya for his comments. Excellent and, oh, so true! Sadly, we are governed by clinically psychopathic people and, until the masses finally take to the streets, it is unlikely anything will change soon.

Guest

Outside looking in.

It seems to me from where I am standing, and observing this US health debate. There is no chance of either side of politics bringing a fair and equable health system into being. Will the people go into the streets over this, such things have happened I suppose, think of Vietnam protest, 
and the ruckus over the Hispanic workers. Maybe Michael Moore and other good folk can light a small fire that will end up racing like a wild fire, I sincerely hope so. The point is whatever happens in the world, in some way or other affects us all. The US is not on another planet from the rest of the World, and thus it affects the world, and visa versa. History teaches us that absolutely no empire or great power is permanent, this truth must scare the hell out of the corporate world. And give hope to those they brutalize. 
 
Mike

http://mozilla

Registered

What are you talking about?

Where the hell do you people live? I have been treated like this at any hospital or health care institution! 
I was recently had a nullLife threatening illness without insurance and went in and was completely treated and on the way home within 5 hours including driving time. 
 
When are you going to read your insurance policies before forking over what's left of your money after the democrats tax the hell out of you? 
If the policy sucks get a different one! You already have the power to fix the problems it's called free market. Find a better company.

http://www.malagent.com

Guest

Clueless...

It is apparent that Malagent is one of the fortunate few in this country who has not yet hit a brick wall in the corporatized health care system peculiar to Amerika. It is also apparent that he/she is not a health care worker nor an employer. 
 
It is only a matter of time until he/she or family members or close friends become victims of the system. I am a poor prognosticator most of the time, but I hereby predict (with near 100% certainty) that Mal will sooner or later "enjoy" the experience of a medical "close encounter" of the worst kind - it will be an expensive lesson, it will be a sorrowful experience, and self or loved ones will suffer needlessly. 
 
There are none so blind as those who will not see...

Guest

Clueless...

malagent...For every story like yours there are thousands that say the opposite. I, myself, have a tale of woe that I was not going to tell but you have inspired me. A while back I was stopped in a line of traffic and rear-ended by a large speeding dump truck. The accident had many witnesses who said that the accident occurred because the truck driver was looking out the side window at some pretty ladies in shorts. My car was totalled and I was nearly killed. At the time, I had 3 insurance policies covering me for medical problems. NONE PAID BECAUSE THE HOSPITAL AND THE INSURANCE COMPANIES HAD A "SECRET" AGREEMENT THAT INSURANCE COMPANIES WOULD NOT BE BILLED IN ACCIDENTS WHERE THERE SHOULD BE LITIGATION. I will be paying the hospital bills for the rest of my life. You can read the details of this case by googling my name and "The Deposition".  
malagent, sadly, you are a perfect example of "the every man for himself" philosophy that I talk about in the article.

Guest

Clueless...

Robert Dotson, MD...Thanks for the comments. Too many, such as malagent, have "up the drawbridge syndrome". They have theirs and have no compassion for the rest of us. 
 
Ghebre...I am saddened by your problems. Good luck to you. 
 
Dr. Poyla and Mike...The root of the problem is the Congress and the voters. Anyone who votes for a democrat or republican is responsible for this. Both Parties have had decades to fix the Health Care System. It is now time to get them out of office and replace them with an "Abwinador" (anybody who is not a democrat or republican).

Guest

RE: no compassion for the rest of us.

To a certain extent that is true. No, Im not a heartless soul who has no regard for the suffering of others. But... 
 
I have spent many years of my life in Law Enforcement. During those years I had been shot, stabbed, and hit by a car. All while helping others. My years in public law enforcement work were as a volunteer so I was not insured other than workers compensation and I was never paid. As a private police officer I opted out of any medical coverage. 
 
I had a child die in my arms, I watched as a 15 year old boy bleed in the street and die after being shot 7 times over $3 - he may have lived if not for the crowd of people blocking the fire rescue crews. The crowd was too busy throwing rocks at us while we were trying to help. We were called racist while they yelled about abuse and so on. All with no knowledge of what had happened 
 
In my city the illegal immigrants clog the medical system - taking advantage of the care they receive because they are not allowed to be turned away. They don\'t pay the taxes I do, they do not speak English as I do, and they do not pay the hospital bills as I do. But they are treated the same as I am at the hospital. 
 
My career has shown me more death and suffering than most will see in a lifetime. So yes, I have lost a lot of my compassion for those that do not help themselves if they are able.  
 
Many have said HR 676 is the answer to all the medical problems we face. I have read the bill (any one else read it?) 
 
One problem I have is the cost: 
 
\"Proposed Funding For USNHI Program: 
Maintaining current federal and state funding of existing health care programs. A modest payroll tax on all employers of 3.3%. A 5% health tax on the top 5% of income earners. A small tax on stock and bond transfers. Closing corporate tax loop-holes, repealing the Bush tax cut. 
 
Thats as much as a 8.3% tax increase. I already pay about 38% which would potentially put me at 46% or about half of what I earn. 
 
Next is the eligibility... 
SEC. 101. ELIGIBILITY AND REGISTRATION. 
(a) In General- All individuals residing in the United States (including any territory of the United States) are covered under the USNHI Program entitling them to a universal, best quality standard of care....\\\" 
 
(b) Registration- Individuals and families shall receive a United States National Health Insurance Card... 
 
All individuals residing in the United States? Sorry but we already give entirely too many benefits to illegals. We really do not need to provide more incentives for people to flood into the U.S. illegally. 
 
And the national ID card with the social security number. Regardless of the conspiracy theories out there I still do not want a national ID card of any type, its just a plain bad idea. 
 
Aside from the bill it is a fact that much of the innovation in any field is driven by the profit motive. A not for profit system would reduce much of that. 
 
If the government cant handle a free market system due to corruption, how can we logically conclude that it would not simply get worse with a system like that proposed in H.R. 676? 
 
People say we have a socialized system of protection (public police). So if that works so well why are so many people still victims of crime? And why is private law enforcement such a large and growing business? 
 
The government run educational system is so severely flawed that our children are receiving a depressingly poor education and falling behind many other nations of the world. Are we to honestly expect or believe that health care would be any different? 
 
With so many failures of government to provide what the people need we should be seeking to limit gov. involvement other than to enforce the rule of law such as criminal offense committed by companies. 
 
There is a problem in the medical system. I can not deny that. The problem, however, is that consumers have not exercised their power to correct the issues. There is no law stating which providers to use. If every stopped using providers who did not provide a quality service then someone would step up and provide the service because there would be a need and they could profit from it. 
 
Maybe, just maybe we should restrict and go after the lobbying of politicians. Oh, yes, imagine how different the laws would be if they were made with my interests and yours rather than the billion dollar companies? 
 
Maybe people should stop just taking the doctors prescriptions for every ailment. Does anyone here know how many prescription drugs the average American takes? Its insane, it drives the cost up for the insurance companies, the patients and it increases the health problems. So people need to think about it, just because there is an advertisement for some miracle drug does not mean you have to run to the doctor and ask for it. I have a friend who is 35 years old and takes 14 different prescribed drugs at a cost of hundreds of dollars per week. Half of the drugs are to offset the effects of the other half. But what does he do when he thinks something is wrong? He goes and actually asks for another prescription. Should I have to pay for that? 
 
No. 
 
I just want people to make an informed decision rather than just saying it must be so because Moore says so. 
 
And finally, re: no compassion for the rest of us 
If I choose to have compassion that\'s one thing. When the government forces me to have compassion something is wrong.

http://www.malagent.com

Guest

Sympathy...

Having read Mal\'s last comments, I can understand his frustration a bit better. My son is a full-time paramedic in a nearby rural county and a part time deputy. Needless to say, the work these men and women do is underpaid and often underappreciated. In East Tennessee, many poorer counties provide no benefits at all for their emergency workers. 
 
In my own practice, we have taken care of public safety people for years for free or much reduced prices in an attempt to help them by giving back to the community. Sadly, many of these individuals have developed severe illness (cancer, heart disease, on the job injury, etc.) and have ended up penniless once their insurance ran out or they were laid off due to some medical reason. 
 
This should not be this way... We can spend TRILLIONS of dollars (extracted at the point of a gun from all of us tax-payers) to fund illegal and immoral wars, but we can\'t take care of our own??? 
 
Until the present Elite (and this extends throughout our corporatocracy) is literally removed from office/power (and they will not go quietly or willingly!), any fixes will be CORPORATIST in nature and gamed to continue transfering the wealth of the masses to the pockets of the Elite.  
 
The illegal alien issue is really outside the topic of this thread, but suffice it to say that it is the policies of the Global Elite that have given us this mess. \"They\" have been very successful in sucking the lifeblood out of this country and our neighbor to the south. \"They\" not only want, but are well on their way to achieving a leveling of the North American people to the lowest common-denominator economically. We are all simply slaves on their plantation.  
 
Between 1980 an 2005, for instance, the bottom 97% of wage earners in the US have experienced a constant-dollar drop in income of >17%. That drop is even more significant as one moves toward the bottom half of the population. Needless, to say, the upper 3%\'s income has increased 3-5 times over the same period. Yes, things are great if your name is Bush or Cheney or Clinton! 
 
I fear that we are past the point of seeking redress by legal means, but we must continue to try and reform the system through every constitutional means at our disposal. Hopefully, Mal and his law enforcement colleagues will not allow themselves to become tools of a new fascist state. Hopefully, these necessary people will realize that we are all in the same boat!

Guest

Sympathy...

malagent...I think there is a hint of racism in your last comment. In my view there is no such person as an "illegal". We are all just people, part of the same human race. 
Also, about the cost of a single payer system- it would be less than what we are paying now. Once you eliminate the insurance company HIGH CEO salaries, shareholder profits, excessive paperwork, etc., we would be spending less on medical care than we are now. 
And yes, I agree that the government does not have a right to force you to be compassionate, but you do not have a right to prevent others from having compassion. Each of us must live by our own global view. Have you seen SiCKO?

Guest

LEAKED INTERNAL MEMO

Guest

LEAKED INTERNAL MEMO

Before you sell the farm and go looking for Mikes Paradise, better check it out first. I have been to most of the large countries around the world, and a lot of the small ones, I have not seen one that I would want to live in. You wont find the comforts of here and never the freedom.  
 
M. Moore has not done so bad here in America, that just shows that some people one can never please, he is free to leave any time he wants to, we have no walls to keep the people in, and not enough fences to keep the people out - that should tell you some thing.

Guest

Too bad

Too bad his movie titled "SICKO" wasnt about the ismaofacists like MWC website that do nothing but trash America....

Guest

re=Hypocrates

MWC could not have done this without the help of people like you and the system that you support.

Guest

re=Hypocrates

Thanks for that link Shahram. If you click on the "Sicko Blog" and go down to the Linda Peeno piece you will find a lot of good information, "...Though we desperately need radical health reform and urgent patient protections, a change in policy will not be enough. We need a change of heart and spirit with equal urgency. We need to create a culture of care, compassion, and connection – not just for health care, but for all our ways of need for one another....". That was one of the best parts of the film, that and when the patients were being discharged from the Canadian hospital and stopped by the "Cashiers" office.

Guest

Re: hint of racism in your last comment

I am not racist at all. Regarding illegals, which is exactly what a person is when they violate the law. I am referring to those that come to this country with no regard for the laws, drain the system to the point of failure and then expect me to support them. 
In my career I have arrested thousands of people of all races and nationalities. A disproportionate number of them were illegal immigrants in this country, mostly from Mexico. There were a few from other places but very few. I never once arrested a person for their immigration status, I did not have to. They committed plenty of other crimes, many violent offenses. 
If a hispanic, african, arab, whatever wants to live in Amnerica that's great. Many of them do. I even know a an immigrant from Canada. There is a system to allow people to immigrate here. Learn the language, do your best at making a living and pay your taxes - just don't expect me to pay for your social services when you can't follow the rules to get here. 
As compassionate as we all want to be we simply can't afford to take care of everyone. It just is not possible, at some point people do have to take care of themselves or no one survives. 
I would like to see some information on how much the health care of illegal immigrants cost the rest of us in increased costs and taxes.

http://www.malagent.com

Guest

Re: hint of racism in your last comment

Mal\'s question: \'I would like to see some information on how much the health care of illegal immigrants cost the rest of us in increased costs and taxes?\' Should be followed by, \'and how much does the US gain from the exploitation of cheep labor from the illegals?\'.  
It\'s no use being one eyed, look at both sides of the equation. 
Why is private policing a growing industry, thats simple; not enough is spent on state policing, and crime is high, both are cultural problems , and 
what form of policing does one consider the corporate world prefers?  
A person cannot choose to have compassion, either you have compassion, or you don\'t, it\'s not a thing you can turn off and 
on. One thing is understood by many, if you have experience great suffering or seen much of it, then you might gain compassion, but be careful not to be bitter. 
2.5 trillion dollars down the tube, on a revolting war that cannot be ultimately won. Think of the tax cuts you could have, if that was dumped, it would more than pay for an iconic health system. 
Yes the over use of prescription drugs is ridicules, but do the pharmaceuticals, think so? 
Why did those people throw stones at you Mal. 
Unsinkable sir,I too have lived and and worked in quite a few countries, clearly not the ones you have. By the way I did not know there was a lack of freedom in Europe, Scandinavia, New Zealand and Australia etc. Still you live and learn don\'t you. 
 
Mike

http://mozilla

Guest

Re: hint of racism in your last comment

Malagent...1. The USA has 700 military bases in foreign countries, therefore maybe we have lost our right to object when people from other countries come here. 
2. U.S. corporations have been exploiting the labor from this and other countries for a long time. Those who come here to work should be welcomed.  
3. If the USA did not disrupt the economies in other countries it would not be necessary for those people to come here. Please read John Perkins, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. Also please read about The Water Wars. 
4. The USA is the most language deficient country compared to all other industrialized nations. It would be a benefit to have a bi or tri lingual society.

Guest

re=Rosemarie

Quote:

---

 
Please read John Perkins, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

---

 
 
We happen to have an interview on that. 
 
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

Guest

re=Rosemarie

Shahram...Thanks for the link to John Perkins. It is a good one! 
 
Mike...I agree about compassion. Maybe it is not something that can be "willed". The DSM does list lack of compassion and empathy as a symptom in some psychiatric disorders.

Guest

re=Rosemarie

Yes I believe that all sane humans have some compassion and empathy in them of course. When one sees genuine suffering you may experience such. 
But when one experiences compassion for both sides of the coin then one is getting somewhere. 
The red neck border guard, and the retched illegal immigrant, they are both victims of the system they are born into. And at that level of compassion, you realize, that there are some things that should be freely available, even if you have to fork out some money from your own earnings. The big trick is to see through others eyes. 
Yes Mal I can understand your feelings, at the same time I can understand the feelings of migrants also. 
Lets face it health care is a most fundamental thing, without it people can suffer and die. 
 
Mike

http://mozilla

Registered

Response to Mike & dissent...

1. Military bases have nothing to do with me supporting people who can't follow the law to migrate to the U.S. 
2. Is it really exploitation to pay a worker several dollars a day in a country where those dollars are the equivalent of many dollars and the worker could only make a few cents a day otherwise? 
Let's get rid of all the corporations and the big salaries the CEOs get for making them successful - Okay, now where are we all going to work? There is a reason why CEOs make a lot of money and get tax breaks, it's because they create jobs, products, and services that we all need. 
 
3. Which countries? How? When has Mexico ever really had money? 
4.If I move to Mexico I had better learn Spanish, or French if I move to France. We have a language deficiency because too many people don't speak English. Many that do after graduating from or defective schools don't speak it well. 
 
Mike, I have compassion for immigrants. Many years ago my family came on a boat and some died in the process, but they followed the established methods to get here. The Mexican government needs to fix their economy. All that does not mean we need to have millions more coming here illegally and draining money from our economy and it back to Mexico without paying taxes here.

http://www.malagent.com

Guest

Response to Mike & dissent...

Point 2, yes it is exploitation, but who do you speak of, the legal or the illegal. If it is the illegal, and someone knowingly exploits them there is a crime surely, but your the expert in such things. And if they are legal and work for pittance, then you have created a coolie class, like the British Raj did in the colonial days. 
In both cases these coolies have robed the system of better payed jobs for the rest of the workforce. 
Point 3 As for the righteous CEOs that create jobs, they are indeed, in China and India, watch that space, it will come and haunt you. There is a term used in England I remember, Forelock Tugging, I see a bit of that in your attitude to greedy CEOs. 
In response to your last paragraph, one has to look at paragraph two, is it compassionate to judge a persons value, from where he/she migrated from, and thus o.k. you\'re Mexican we will give you this take it or leave. And if that person is a legal immigrant 
surely he/she will pay taxes on her/his pittance whatever that might be. As for the illegal immigrants, the real criminals are the exploiters. They are not just exploiting the the immigrants but the country also. 
As you said they scoot off without paying taxes, (can\'t be much on a few dollars). Those who employ these people are  
the criminals. If they did not employ them, but employed legitimate workers problem solved, you get the Taxes and better wages. 
I will let you into a secret, (you know just between you and me Mal), I can remember oh too well standing in an airport with my wife and two boys in a new land, with very little money, and hard times ahead, I had to struggle yes sir, so I say, a toast to the immigrants!God love them, often very few do. 
All this has something to do with compassion and health care. 
 
Mike

http://mozilla

Guest

re=Malagent

Lets see.  
 
You started with calling Michael Moore a liar based on your own single personal experience which unlike Moore who goes to a great length to provide the audience with facts and document, you failed to prove that single event nevertheless. 
 
Then you blame immigrants for all US failure and problems, not realizing Canada has the same situation and in greater scale per capita, yet not only is able to provide all its population with medicare plan but also had had surplus during last five years. (or maybe the reason is that we do not spend 2/3 of our budget on defences) 
 
80% of Canadian immigrants enter Canada "illegally" (whatever that means), if they wish to work, they work, if not government must and will provide them with basic necessities (food, shelter, etc...) 
 
You see here we do not think, that I work why should I pay for someone else medicare. Most of us believe the distance between that person and I is just an unfortunate accident in life, hence we are not paying for others well being and security, we are investing in our countries future and prosperity. 
 
Is not far fetch that children of the same "illegal" immigrants who you reject, and dismiss their hard work become (and experince and facts shows that they will) productive member of your society and contribute to well being of someone like you or your children. 
 
Look at university faculties, NASA, and other social and scientific agencies in US and you will notice that majority of them either they were immigrants themselves, or are the next generation of immigrants. 
 
Now, lets get back to this topic of the discussion about Universal Health Care. Moore successfully has shown that is working very well elsewhere and those scare tactics by Insurance lobbyist and politicians in US are invalid and a big lie. 
 
ALSO SEE... 
Quest Above

Registered

I started off as...

I did not start off calling Moore a liar, I simply asked a question and offered my perspective. As for proving my experience I suppose I can bring a camera with me next time I have top seek treatment for something. 
I never blamed immigrants for all U.S. failure or problems, I referred to ILLEGALS. The scope of that issue goes far beyond the scope of these comments. Simply put another comment is correct in saying the criminals include those that hire them and exploit them. I still hesitate to call it exploitation - especially when people flock to fill the low paying illegal positions. 
 
My point is simple regarding the health care issue, my experience has been different, the system does have problems, the people are the real solution to it. Exercise your right to choose a different provider, refuse to accept substandard care. 
 
Moore's movie pointed out a case which he blames on the insurance company when in fact it was a county run hospital that provided substandard care and the patient died, the mother sued the county and won as she should have. Moore leaves this out - surely because it shows a government run hospital failing when he supports socialized government run health care. 
 
I have posted on my site information giving a different perspe3ctive than Sicko.

http://www.malagent.com

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I started off as...

I apologize . True you did not make that comment here. But you have referred us to your blog on this issue and I quote. 
 
Quote:

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Update: I decided to watch the Movie SiCKO and I can say I was not dissappointed. I knew it would be the same old Moore lies and it was. Moore shows a 7 year old World Health Organization report showing the U.s. to be #37. He fails to mention the age of the report only stating that we are just behind Slovenia. The report he shows also has Cuba listed belor the U.S. although he later tries to frame the Cuban medical system as far superior to that of the U.S. ~Malagent 07-08-2007

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bold is mine

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I started off as...

Malagent...you say that the people are the solution and they should just choose a different provider and not accept substandard care. That is precisely the point of SiCKO. We ALL should be demanding that the HMOs and insurance companies get out of the sickness industry so that the money that they rake in can be used for real health care. The problem that you fail to recognize is that no one person can do it alone. Think of Edith Rodriguez. What could she have done to save her life? What about people who work for exploitive wages and cannot afford insurance? What about the 18,000 who die every year for lack of access to medical care? Blaming the victims, as you continue to do, will not solve the problem.

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Report:

U.S. health care expensive, inefficient 
 
America ranks last among six countries on key measures, group finds 
 
WASHINGTON - Americans get the poorest health care and yet pay the most compared to five other rich countries, according to a report released on May 15 2007 
 
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18674951/

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Shahram...thanks, that is the main point. The USA pays the most and gets the least for its money. This happens because in the USA a large portion of the money goes for obscene profits and CEO salaries and NOT health care. It is so simple, it makes you wonder why some have not figured it out yet. P T Barnum was right.

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I want to recommend the book "Making a Killing" which documents a lot of additional information. Most people don't know that if their HMO kills them, their family cannot even sue for damages. The lobbying of the HMO industry has really paid off for them and given them protections beyond any one's wildest dreams. They should be prosecuted under the anti-racketeering laws, but then again who would do the prosecuting - the government is complicit.

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Michael Moore used a 7 year old report on the US standing in health care, so how has the situation improved since 2000? 
The US is the last among the top six economic nations (2007) in the health stakes. Life expectancy is no 48, there has to be a health care connection there, dont you think?  
Also Mal you said, a patient died through inadequate care at a county hospital, so no such thing happens at private hospitals? 
I agree with Shahran, one must see others as not separate, and what befalls another could have happened to you. 
Not seeing the simple truth of corporate greed, is an induced blindness, put upon the population by the corporations, after all they control just about all of the Media. 
Waking up to the realities of society, is like suddenly gaining sanity in a mad house. 
Here is an ancient saying: Sometime, somewhere you need to take something to be the truth. But if you cling to it too strongly, then even when the truth comes in person and knocks on your door, you will not open it. 
 
Mike

http://mozilla

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SICKO: Rx for Democracy

I had the pleasure of watching Michael Moore’s Sicko recently. I won’t go into details or an extensive review now except to say that it is certainly the best thing he has done to date. In spite of having lost some of its impact by being perhaps a half-hour too long, Sicko is doing what documentaries are best meant to do - using unscripted footage of real people and events to distill the truth in a capsulated form - to open our eyes and raise our awareness. The camera work was slightly improved over his past projects - although still terrible by even the most forgiving “commercial” documentary standards. I think he even pried a few bucks from his wallet for a Steadycam rental in the Paris scenes. I guess - like Cassavetes, bad cinematography will remain pretty much a trademark with Moore.  
 
For me, the most revealing part of the film came during an interview with former MP, Tony Benn [1]who said that democracy mandates things like universal health care. He said that rulers prefer to keep the people in a constant stare of fear, poverty, ill health, low self esteem, depression and despair in order that they may be more easily managed. Later an American in Paris says that “In a democracy the people do not fear the government, the government fears the people.” That is the only way that democracy ever works. That is the only way it can work. I think that the hidden message, or at least the message that must be teased out from Sicko is this: Our poor health care system (at least the way a majority of lower and middle class Americans experience it) is more than just a well designed Capitalist shell game to take from the poor to give to the rich - to harvest big bucks from the rubes. It is, on a more profound level, a magnificent piece of social engineering and crowd control. You are not going to rock the boat if doing so will put your career and family in jeopardy. How many people in this country hold jobs just for the illusion of healthcare for themselves and their loved ones? Daniel Ellsberg, not too long ago, made an eloquent plea for whistleblowers to come forward. [2.] He begged them to lift the lid of secrecy about the plans concerning the build up to the Iraqi war He spoke to the members of the military and especially the compliant Pentagon bureaucracy to act as he had done in his Pentagon Papers revelations, to bring forth the documents that can indict this administration. Is it any wonder no one comes forward? Why do you suppose only the safely retired generals have the temerity to question Bush’s war policy? Who is brave enough to risk job and career and family for one stupid act of bravery and patriotism? And it is just the military that demands obedience, and silence. Multiply this by the millions of wage slaves all across this land and your will see the dystopian vision of 1984 perfectly incarnated. 
 
The peculiar brilliance of Moore’s strategy is that it is directed at working-class people. The blue-collars in this country have been perhaps the most singularly disenfranchised of all. These were the people who deserted the union halls and the Democratic Party to march lemming-like to the Gipper’s pipe-song. These are the ones who give the phone boards of Limbaugh and Hannity that constant Christmas glow. They rant against taxation for the rich, socialized medicine and delight in cutting their own throats. These are the people Michael Moore is targeting. I know the progressives and the intellectuals love him. He could care less if he is idolized by the left and excoriated by the right. His message is for the worker at McDonald’s and Wal-Mart, the unemployed steel worker, the secretaries and all the other grist for the millers. These are the masses that must be moved and Michael is the man to move them.  
 
I do not despair. The truth is coming out whether our masters like it or not. All the heat and pressure of this most interesting of times is distilling the real issues into a heady reductive brew. Never have the contradictions of power and the hypocrisy of those who would sell us and our future out for their own gain been more obvious or set in higher relief. This discontent does not reside only in the enlightened. It is gnawing as well at those the elites would call the “great unwashed”. That is why there is so much displaced anger in the land and why I’m sure guys like Limbaugh and Hannity must feel at times distinctly uneasy in their precarious. seating atop this tiger. After all, they will be the first ones eaten when their “ditto heads” begin to awaken. These people will not listen to the “liberal media,” academics, the politicians, or even their ministers. They will listen to guys like Michael Moore.  
 
The most difficult journey a human being can make is from the zone of comfort to the frontier of action. This is a transition we Americans must soon effect if there is to be any hope for our society or for the world. We have to lay aside so many comfortable assumptions that have stayed so long that, like the air we breathe, we no longer even recognize them as separate from ourselves. “Drive your Chevrolet; in the USA; America’s the greatest land of all!” [3.] Dina Shore belted out of the speakers of our TVs over a half a century ago. Still today the tune springs more effortlessly into my mind than the Lord’s Prayer or the pledge of allegiance. This land we love is crumbling around us. We have shirked our responsibilities long enough: tilting at windmills not building them; watching Reality TV in place of good documentaries; accepting HMO membership as a substitute for a responsible, healthy life.  
 
I am a believer in the power of the gods. As a professed atheist, I suppose my argument might be dismissed as a mere belief in metaphor. Yet there is a force here I cannot confidently explain away. The more the monotheists suppress these gods (and the forces they control) under their theocratic banner, the stronger they become. One of the most powerful of all the gods is the apparently unassuming trickster-god: Elegua [4.]Coyote, Till Eulenspeils, Br'er Rabbit, etc. His delight is in the upsetting of our best laid plans. His specialty is the destruction of the schemes of the rich and powerful - those pompous egos who think themselves invincible - the titanic Richard Cheneys of our world. I tell you this whole house of cards is coming apart on them. The gods - especially the gods of mischief and chaos, are already fouling all their little projects. Our rulers are as yet too blind to even notice the strands tightening around their ankles, preparing them for the great fall. Soon now it all will come crashing down. Every day I view with delight some new scandal. Even though I mourn the death of any one - from Saddam Hussein to Pat Tillman, I still view each disaster in Iraq and Afghanistan with hope. Finally the downy cheeked recruits and the third mission soldiers alike are awakening to the reality of the futility of this “search abroad for monsters to destroy.” This slogan of American Imperialism is even less tenable today than it was when Quincy Adams warned us off it 200 years ago.  
 
From Sophocles’ Oedipus Rex, The Iceman Cometh , The Wizard of Oz to A Face in the Crowd, literature and film are replete with examples of sudden transformations - of the instantaneous, catastrophic dropping of the illusions and the metamorphoses of a demagogue into plaything of the gods, hustler and pathetic confidence man in a single revelatory event. We are not beyond this happening today. In spite of all their power and seemingly unbreakable hold on the means of persuasion and mass hypnosis they are not immune from error and horrid miscalculation. The people only seem to slumber, only seem to be beyond shock and awe. They have been greatly bloodied of late and are growing steadily more tired of the diet of putrid meat the lackeys at the Wall Street Journal, The Weak-ly Standard, Fox and The NYT expect them to wolf down without first smelling it. 
 
That is why the strident cries of the political hacks who would cheerlead on this dying , toxic administration in its final hour end up only amplifying its death rattle. That is why the loyal opposition candidates who, in spite of all their inept attempts at manipulation, still seem so wooden and devoid of conviction.  
 
To my mind we have two things we must do with this emerging consciousness. First, Like the addict who awakens one morning and can no longer excuse the excrement and the filth he is lying in and vows to change his way of living at all cost, we must throw off these appetites and these rulers who have so for long punished us, soothed us and given us our fixes. And yet it is not enough just to clear the ground. Second, we must have a plan to build anew and not just fall back into some equally pernicious comfort - some new addiction. The tearing down will be painful not the least for the reason that the institutions we will be smashing must first be smashed within ourselves. We must take the AA (Amerika Anonymous) pledge. This is a difficult task and not everyone can do it. Most are content merely to go along and get along. All that is needed is that a few of us, those of us who have had this vision beyond the present hopelessness, must lead with courage and with love. We know there is a better way. This close to the brink of doom, there is no other way. 
 
 
Notes: 
 
[1.] Sicko interview clip with Tony Benn: 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbUzKlmp-x8 
 
“Choice depends on the freedom to choose and if you’re shackled with debt you don’t have the freedom to choose. People in debt become hopeless and hopeless people don’t vote. I think if the poor in Britain or the United States turned out and voted for people who represented their interests it would be a real democratic revolution. So (they are for) keeping people hopeless and pessimistic I think there are two ways in which people are controlled. First of all, frighten people and secondly demoralize them. An educated, healthy and confident nation is harder to govern and I think there is an element in the thinking of some people: ‘we don’t want people to be educated, healthy and confident because they would get out of control.’ The top one percent of the world’s population owns eighty percent of the world’s wealth. It’s incredible that people put up with it. But they’re poor, they’re demoralized, they’re frightened and therefore they think perhaps the safest thing to do is to take orders and hope for the best.” 
 
[2.] Ellsberg said that he hopes someone with access to documents about the U.S. government’s plans for war with Iran will come forward. “By taking that risk,” he said, “they’d have a high chance of averting a catastrophe that would lead to the deaths of tens, hundreds of thousands of people and disastrously reduce our security.”  
Ellsberg at a speech to the 46th annual General Assembly of the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations in Portland, Ore., June 20–24, 2007.http 
 
www.uuworld.org/news/articles/31475.shtml  
 
[3.] “Shore pioneered the prime-time color variety show with the Chevrolet Sponsored The Dinah Shore Chevy Show starting in October 1956 on NBC and running on Sunday nights until the end of the 1963 season. Dinah Shore helped make the low-priced Chevrolet automobile the most widely selling car up to that point in history.”  
 
“See the USA in your Chevrolet  
America is asking you to call  
Drive your Chevrolet through the USA  
America's the greatest land of all  
 
On a highway, or a road along the levee  
Performance is sweeter, nothing can beat her  
Life is completer in a Chevy”  
 
http://www.vintagechevrolet.org/articles/VCO_2001019_dinahshore.htm 
 
“I started singin’, 
"bye-bye, miss American pie." 
Drove my chevy to the levee, 
But the levee was dry.” 
 
American Pie - Don McClean 
 
http://www.don-mclean.com/americanpie.asp 
 
[5.] ELEGUA: Trickster God of Crossroads, Beginnings and Opportunity.  
 
He's the Guardian of the Crossroads of Life. Whenever there are decisions to be made, he provides opportunities and second chances. If you're lucky. As a Trickster God, the childlike ELEGUA can sometimes make things even more complicated. At a whim he can turn a simple choice into a vast conundrum of paradox.  
 
He's also messenger to the higher Gods, particularly OLORUN, and he does like to be noticed. He's partial to cigars and rum, but he is very good with children. His day is Monday — so you can start the week well under his ministrations. His colour coding is red and black. 
 
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/african-mythology.php?deity=ELEGUA

Registered

You seem to be making a good case agains

RE: 
The problem that you fail to recognize is that no one person can do it alone. Think of Edith Rodriguez. What could she have done to save her life? 
 
Of course one person can\'t do it alone, that is why I stated -the people. 
 
Concerning Edith Rodriguez. That is another tragic case. It was also a public hospital-  
 
Martin Luther King Jr.-Harbor Hospital (MLK-Harbor), formerly known as Martin Luther King Jr./Drew Medical Center (King/Drew) 
 
This case and others at the hospital are tragic cases of negligence and show a criminal attitude towards people. The people responsible for such acts should be severely punished. Additionally families and victims of this abuse should sue the hell out of them if they have not. 
 
But I\'m so glad you bring that up because - again it is a public hospital, run by the government. 
Given this kind of incident I would much rather go to a private hospital for care. Some people of course don\'t have that choice. However, if many people stood up and demanded things be done about incidents like this whether in public or private hospitals, punish those responsible etc, it would not be as much of an issue. 
 
But I guess I am still wanting to know why when people argue for government health care they bring up cases like this. But it is always at a public government run institution? Rather than just asking me if this does not happen at private hospitals, why can\'t someone point out some examples? I would be willing to guess it is because private hospitals do not want to be sued as it would mean they lose money. 
 
Another thing many of you keep bringing up is the 18,000 people a year who die due to a lack of coverage. What is actually stated is  
 
18,000 die for no other reason than a lack of coverage. 
 
That is a ridiculous statement, am I to believe that they drop dead because they have no policy in hand. Don\'t they have to be sick first, or injured. 
 
Think about that number for a minute. 18,000 out of 300,000,000 people. That\'s 0.006% of the population of the country. or of the 47,000,000 uninsured it is 0.038% which I believe would be one out of every 2,611 without insurance. 
Feel free to correct my math if I am wrong, I\'m not a statistician. 
 
Now let\'s go back to before all this mess got started, or as many state before Nixon endorsed the HMOs. 
How many people died due to a lack of facilities? How about a lack of Doctors? Lack of medicine? Lack of equipment? 
 
I think it would be very safe to assume it was more than 0.006% 
 
It\'s real easy to make the sytem look bad, in fact it is very popular lately because many people feel they are entitled to more, better, or free care. And they are. But it is also irresponsible to only consider the bad points when looking for a solution. One must weigh the benefits of a system and its inadequacies to have a full understanding. 
 
Consider that Life expectancy at birth in the United States in 1900 was 47 years. At the end of the century it was 77 years, an increase of 64% (or an increase of 30 years). 
 
But has anyone ever considered reasons people die in the US? Is it just because of health care? 
 
Its 15.2 per 100,000 or 45,600 253% more than the 18,000 uninsured. So should we just outlaw cars to save those 45,600? 
 
My point is study and learn, don\'t just take a politicians word for it or even Michael Moore\'s word. I got these numbers from National Center for Health Statistics  
Health, United States, 2006  
With Chartbook on Trends in the Health of Americans  
Hyattsville, MD: 2006

http://www.malagent.com

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