MWC- You have mentioned the political parties in the US. What is your view of two-party systems, which many consider to be but one party? 

DE- I think Gore Vidal has often said we have one party with two right wings, basically the money party with two branches. That’s a fair approximation, but I do think that people who say there is no significant differences at all between the two parties are misguided and that it’s rather dangerously misleading to encourage third-party movements on that basis (so long as our electoral system remains heavily biased in favor of two parties).

Let me to be specific, For Ralph Nader to say that there is no significant difference whatever, in 2000 and 2004, was basically to be an apologist for the Republicans, for the party of George W. Bush.  To say they are not worse is almost crazy. It is terribly unrealistic.  Even though the party difference in foreign policy is not very great, the difference in domestic policy is significant, and there is of course an enormous difference between Bush and Cheney and practically any of their rivals in either the Democrats or Republicans. 

For one thing, they have extraordinary attachment to unilateral actions and to military aggression-- which almost none of the others share-- along with a collection of crackpot, crazy ideas, expectations about what they can achieve with military force and the value of it. They have a cult-like group of beliefs that are similar, if I may say, to fundamentalist sects whether in Christianity, Judaism or Islam. Really, some of the beliefs of neo-cons are not much more realistic then the belief of certain fundamentalist Christian in the coming “rapture”, in which they will be transported up to heaven to escape the tribulations of the unbelievers left behind.

I must say that I blame Ralph Nader for ignoring that point that he really did help George Bush get power in 2000; I hope it does not happen again. There is no way around it: it is my opinion that the Democrats are a lesser evil and that that has a meaning, and ultimately it is important to keep anyone like George W Bush and Dick Cheney out of power. 

But it is also true that the Democrats’ policies, especially in foreign affairs, are extremely dangerous like the Republicans, and the basic commitment to American hegemony at the highest level among the Democrats is no different. There is a big difference between many Democratic voters and the values of the rich who are the core and always have been the core of Republican Party leadership.  It should also be mentioned that the Republicans do have most of the Christian fundamentalists I have just been described, and who are not rich. So there are differences among the voters in the two parties, but in the higher level of officials, unfortunately, there isn't as much difference as they say and there isn't as much difference as there should be.  

MWC- I want to get to the media and their role with respect to war, and perhaps the element of fear which might exist with high-level politicians in the US. Reading the transcript of discussion among Nixon and his aides about you and their anger and frustration I remember Nixon’s comment about you and I quote“We have to get this 'son of a bitch.’ We have to destroy him in the press." One cannot help but to visualize Bush, Cheney, Rove and Gonzales sitting at that table and discussing a present-day Daniel Ellsberg. 

DE- Well, very specifically they did have such a discussion, we now know, about Joseph Wilson, former ambassador who exposed their lies and about his trip to Niger. They had that discussion and it led them to similar kinds of illegal activities as against me, which led to Nixon’s resignation. In this case it did not lead to the down-fall of Cheney and Rove directly, although they were undoubtedly involved, but it did lead to conviction of Cheney's chief of staff Scooter Libby: who I feel very certain will eventually be fully pardoned by the President. So there are great similarities, both in Democrats and Republicans, in their lying and in their reaction to exposure of their lies.  

Politicians in your country or any country that we can refer to, as in ours, lie all the time. That does not mean everything they say is a lie, it means that whatever they say might be a lie and it can never be taken at face value without other evidence. And since their policies rely on these lies, some policies more then others, they are very concerned when anyone from inside, somebody who is an authority [position] like Joe Wilson, or like me with documents, tells truths they are trying to conceal. They are very concerned that their policy might be undermined. Or in some cases, they might be incriminated. 

So they have reason to be concerned, it isn't just a little idiosyncrasy. I will say about our system that it offers more possibilities than most for people to tell the truth from inside and I think we should take more advantage of that before we lose it.  

MWC- Dr. Gideon Polya, MWC's political editor, has recently published a book, “Body Count," for which he has done extensive work and research in access to death mortalities over the past 50 years, including the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. According to him, more than a million have been killed only in Iraq in the past five years. However, it seems that almost all US high-level politicians, whether Republicans or Democrats, or even media who are anti-war, their main focus is US military casualties, and there is hardly any mention of Iraqi civilian deaths, if at all. 

DE- No, you are right about that and it is very sad. Let me address why perhaps that happens. First of all, when you talk about the anti-war movement, it is sizable in numbers in America actually but a very small proportion of the American population, even smaller than in Vietnam and it was a minority then. But it is relatively very small now, and unfortunately I cannot entirely explain that except that there was youthful opposition then that isn't there now. It’s only partly due to the lack of [a] draft, it's due I think to other factors. So the number now is much smaller. Now among the activists whom you mentioned there is no lack of awareness or concern at all about Iraqi causalities. I know the activists that I go to jail with and I work with all the time--and I was in a rally just yesterday--are very anguished about it and concerned.   I do believe, by the way, that the facts of Iraqi civilian casualties probably should be publicized more as part of their antiwar issues more than they are.  

But the reason that does not get more prominence is a very sad one, and I think it is sad not only about America but, I have to say, about our species. That reason is that the public at large--both in Vietnam and now--does not seem to feel a great deal of concern about deaths of foreigners, even if their country is strongly implicated in those deaths.  If they feel any concern at all, it is certainly not anywhere near their concern for the deaths of their own people. 

I must say I am not aware of any countries in history or now for which that is not true. I have not seen it in my reading of history: a great concern about the death of so-called enemies or even of innocent people.  Of course, in the past century war has come to result more and more in the death mainly of civilians.  That was the result of our terror bombing of Germany and Japan, or German operations in Russia, or the Japanese effort to conquer China.  In World War II most casualties were civilians, and since then the proportion has been even higher.