Home arrow Commentary arrow OPINIONS arrow Politic arrow Immigrants, Work, and Welfare
Apr 02 2008
Immigrants, Work, and Welfare | Print |  E-mail
Political Views
By MWC NEWS   

Translation

Immigrants, Work, and Welfare
by Jacob G. HornbergerImage

One of the common laments of the anti-immigration crowd is that illegal immigrants are coming to the United States just to get on welfare.

I suppose the idea is that illegal immigrants are willing to pay hundreds of dollars to an illegal guide to take them on a dangerous trek across the desert or have them transported in the back of a tractor-trailer is so that they can be taken immediately to a local welfare office to begin collecting a welfare check.

But if that is true, then why is it that you never hear of illegal immigrants getting busted at the welfare office? How come they’re always getting busted working in private businesses?

Is it possible — just possible — that Americans, who do have a deep and abiding love for welfare, project their love-of-welfare feelings on illegal immigrants, who in reality seem to have a deep and abiding love for a strong work ethic instead?

How is it that illegal immigrants are able to find their way into the U.S. job market, especially when there are lots of Americans reporting to the welfare office everyday? If there are no jobs, which the Americans in the welfare line will tell you is the case, how is it that illegal immigrants are able to find jobs that supposedly don’t exist?

What all too many Americans fail to realize is that immigrants, especially the illegal ones, contribute mightily to economic prosperity. Not only do they bring a dynamism that is lacking in many Americans, they also produce increased levels of prosperity with their consumption patterns. They’re buying used cars, housing, clothing, and the like, which increases better-paying job opportunities for Americans in those types of sectors.

There is also the division of labor that immigrants bring, which contributes to people’s higher standard of living. Suppose, for example, an 80-year-old man spends 3 days blowing leaves off his big back yard every fall. One fall day, two illegal immigrants show up at his door and offer to blow the leaves away for $20 total. The man might well find it in his own self-interest to agree to the deal. If so, his standard of living has increased.

There are those who argue that illegal immigrants are burdensome to government-owned schools and government-owned hospitals. As my associate Sheldon Richman has suggested, notice that it’s only the public (i.e., government) sector that considers too many customers to be a burden. When was the last time you heard Wal-Mart, Home Depot, or McDonalds complaining that too many customers are a burden? If schools and hospitals were turned over to the same private-property, free-market forces under which other businesses operate, wouldn’t they have the same positive attitude toward customers that other private businesses have?

There’s also an amusing aspect to the lament that illegal immigrants are burdening the public schools. The idea is that Americans don’t want to be paying taxes to fund the schooling of illegal immigrants.

One reason this is amusing is that Americans have rigged the system with compulsory-attendance laws. Since most immigrant families are unable to homeschool and since they cannot afford private schools, the compulsory-attendance laws leave them no choice but to send their children into the system. Why not simply repeal compulsory-attendance laws (or, better yet, separate school and state entirely), which would relieve the illegal immigrant from burdening everyone by putting his children into government schools?

Another reason it’s amusing is that the Americans who issue the lament are themselves guilty of the very thing they’re complaining about with respect to immigrants. For example, I personally don’t have children. Yet, people in my county have no reservations about using the tax system to plunder and loot me to subsidize the schooling of their children. Then after looting me and other similarly situated in such a fashion, they exclaim, “Please stop the illegals from looting me because I don’t want to pay for the schooling of their children.”

The third reason that it’s amusing is that immigrants do pay taxes, including property, sales, and income taxes.

Their employers withhold money from their paychecks for both income taxes and Social Security taxes. I would assume that many illegal immigrants file for income-tax refunds but surely there are some that are too scared to do so, which means a free “gift” from the illegal immigrant to the U.S. Treasury.

On Social Security, the illegal immigrant clearly receives the short end of the stick. As defenders of Social Security often put it, the immigrants are “paying in to the system.” Yet, many of them return to their home countries, never to make a claim on Social Security. Thus, there is a “free” gift to current U.S. Social Security recipients, whose money comes from current Social Security payers.

In fact, according to an editorial in today’s New York Times, “We’re not talking chump change. According to the report, the taxes paid by other-than-legal immigrants will close 15 percent of the system’s projected long-term deficit. That’s equivalent to raising the payroll tax by 0.3 percentage points, starting today.”

This, it’s ironic that some of the most ardent anti-immigrant types are elderly people on Social Security. You would think they would say to themselves, “Thank goodness for the illegal immigrants or otherwise my children and grandchildren would have to be paying even higher Social Security taxes to fund my retirement.”

Isn’t it ironic, then, that while some Americans complain that immigrants are coming to America just to get on welfare, the reality is that not only are they coming to America to work, their efforts not only contribute to America’s economic prosperity but also to its socialistic welfare state?

Mr. Hornberger is founder and president of The Future of Freedom Foundation. 

This_Category
Category:: Political Views

Recommend this article...




Did you enjoy this article? Please bookmark it onto:
Digg!Reddit!Del.icio.us!Newsvine!Blogmarks!Yahoo!

Quote this article on your site | Views: 3193

Comments (45)
RSS comments
1. 02-04-2008 19:38
Some FACTS Would Be Nice But Then You'd
I won't waste your readers time by attempting to sway them with opinion; rather I'm going to provide some FACTS which is something you may want to try the next time you insinuate that Legal, US Citizens love welfare while Illegal Aliens just want to work and reap no benefits or free services from our government. 
 
I do not work for this station or web site and am only providing some real facts so your readers have some truth and again not just your opinion. Keep in mind this is just one county in the US. 
 
[KHTS AM 1220] LOS ANGELES, CA - Antonovich Releases January Illegal Immigrant Numbers 
 
"New statistics from the Department of Public Social Services reveal that illegal aliens and their families in Los Angeles County collected over $36 million in welfare and food stamp allocations in January 2008, announced Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich.  
 
Twenty five percent of the all welfare and food stamps benefits are going directly to the children of illegal aliens. Illegals collected over $19 million in welfare assistance for January 2008 and over $16 million in monthly food stamp allocations, for a projected annual cost of $420 million.  
 
“Illegal immigration continues to have a devastating impact Los Angeles County taxpayers,” said Antonovich. “With $220 million for public safety, $400 million for healthcare, and $420 million in welfare allocations, the total cost for illegal immigrants to County taxpayers far exceeds $1 billion a year – not including the millions of dollars for education.”  
 
Now what say you? Do you still think Illegal Aliens are not raping our system of free government benefits? If you do then you refuse to accept the cold hard facts.
Guest
iaats@comcast.netNOSPAM! ">Striking Back
2. 02-04-2008 20:46
the OTHER facts
We get ripped off every day by the CEOs who profiteer with their salaries, by the oil companies, by the government using our money to slaughter people in other countries, etc. 
 
The U$A has been exploiting those in other countries for decades. Read "War is a Racket", written in the 1930s. Read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" written a couple of years ago. NAFTA has destroyed the economies in other countries. Agriculture in Mexico has been adversely affected by US policies. Many corn farmers have had to give up their farms. 
 
We owe a big debt to those in other countries. It is time for the U$A to pay up. We should be paying reparations to the Mexican and other people for what we have done to them.
Guest
dissent@sover.netNOSPAM! ">rosemarie jackowski
3. 02-04-2008 20:56
the OTHER facts
I'm not sure who this "WE" is you are referring to because all the legal, US Citizens I know have worked all their lives, abided by our laws, taken care of their families, and now have been sold out to Illegal Aliens and Foreign Countries without a second thought. 
 
Reparations? What a crock! The only ones that should get anything is every legal, US Citizen to make up for the the jobs, health care, and education we've had stolen from us by those that continue to pander to and employ Illegal Aliens. 
 
Canada - be careful what you wish for because now the Illegal Aliens are coming to your country to destroy it next. In fact there's a new mother daughter employing agency who finds Illegal Aliens and sends them to Canada to do the jobs that Canadians refuse to do. We'll see how well that all works out for Canada and how you all like it when your country is destroyed by Illegal Aliens and when your government chooses their rights and well being over the legal citizens of Canada. 
 
Here's a tip - It won't be pretty and you'll all be singing a different tune but by then it will be too late.
Guest
Striking Back
4. 02-04-2008 23:39
the OTHER facts
The previous poster knows his facts about the devasting cost of illegal immigration to the California taxpayer. 
 
The Mexican government has videos it has created which it shows to its citizens to explain once they arrive in the USA, how to get maximum benefit from the social welfare system. A vidoe also explains all the ins and outs of anchor babies. 
 
The Mexican government has also provided maps of the best routes to get into the USA. 
 
Mexican textbooks claims that the Western USA is actually Mexican territory. 
 
Many illegal immigrants believe that the entire North American continent belongs to them as of right, due to their "superior" blood, and advocate genocide of all non Chicano people. I kid you not. They have chapters in most American Univeristies and after school programs for little kiddies. 
 
Check out a first hand report/ 
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/11/19/024656.php 
 
 
Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, founder of La Raza Unida Party, Director of "Movimiento Latino USA de Los Angeles", has proudly said:“We have an aging white America…. They are dying…. They are **** in their pants with fear! I love it!” He then demands:“We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him.” http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/JoseAngelGutierrezQuote.html 
 
Check out MEChA. 
 
"MEChA's founding principles state: "In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny...Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and no to the foreign Europeans... 
 
"For La Raza to do. Fuera de la Raza nada." That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says:"For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."  
 
These words don't come from a fringe radical element. These come straight from the official MEChA sites at Georgetown University, the University of Texas, UCLA, University of Michigan, University of Oregon, and many other colleges and universities around the country.  
 
MEXICAN CONSULATE EMPLOYEE CLAIMS SAN DIEGO BELONGS TO MEXICO !!! 
 
WATCH THE VIDEO  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HSgbeTegko  
 
Canadians, don't be naive.  
 
A North American Union is not necessarily a bad idea, but it must be done as it Europe: 
 
1. with the consent of the governed by referendum 
 
2. structured so it benefits all, not just the "elite". 
 
3. Third world countries (like Spain and Greece, and over here Mexico) had to create a proper first world country with a real economy, stable honest political system, educated society, with European values, before entry to the Union. 
 
Otherwise, all economists will tell you, the poor will flow out of the third world country, swamp the first world country and bring it down to the third world level - destroying its culture and identity in the process. 
 
Only 58% of Mexicans have some grade school education. 
 
Mexico does not have an economy: 
- 10% oil ( to be depleted in 9, years) 
20 % money illegal aliens send home from the USA 
70 % tourism. 
 
It is riddled with corruption and crime. 
 
The Mexican Drug Cartel is no joke. Law enforcement now say it has taken over all of Los Angeles, and controls everything, even the politicians. It will probably take the Marines to clean up that sewer now. 
 
My son caught TB from an illegal at school. Ther is no more check on the spread of disease with this illegal alien invasion. 
 
American politicians have been lying to Americans about even the existance of the North American Union policy. 
 
Some Americans have figured it out. When the rest do, don't expect them to remain silent. Americans are livid as it is about our government's refusal to enforce immigration laws.  
 
Trying to foist North American integration on Americans throuhg "evolutionary stealth" (Bush gov document term) is going to backfire. 
 
You better start asking some hard questions of your government. At 25 million, Canadians are soon going to be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of Mexicans. It is estimated that between 20-36 million illegal immigrants are here in the USA.  
 
And there is a policy being promoted among the Hispanic community to produce as many babies as possible so they will become, over a very short period of time, the numeric majority. 
 
Watch out.  
 
For big business this is greed central. 
For Mexicans, this is an invasion.
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb
5. 03-04-2008 03:53
the OTHER facts
liberal side article
Guest
6. 03-04-2008 04:32
re
Quote:
 
 
liberal side article

 
 
If by that you mean the human side, then you are right.
Guest
Shahram
7. 03-04-2008 17:19
re
No,the article is not the human side. 
 
The human side would detail all the legal immigrants from around the world who have obeyed the law, passed background checks, learned US history, passed the medical, and are waiting to get into the USA, but are being bumped by the lawbreaking illegal aliens. 
 
The human side would detail the American families who are waiting so that their relatives who are doing it legally can come join them, and are asking why, in a country with laws that bans discrimination, are illegal aliens ( almost all Hispanic) begining given preferential treatment over all other races and ethnic groups in America. We have Chinese/Vietnamese/Asian Indians friends who have family waiting to come in, and are not happy with the illegal alien cheaters. 
 
The human side would give a comparison with a legal immigrant who finally makes it into the USA, but who is barred for 5 years or more from claiming from the social benefits system, with the illegal alien, using three ID\'s who is raking in the benefit money, raking up hospitla bills or other bills that he will just skip out on, evading taxes, and getting paid under the table so no deductions are even taken.  
 
The human side would tell the story of the recent legal immigrant who has been building a business, and it is going well, until his competition starts hiring illegal labor at half the cost of legal workers, putting the honest businessman out of work. 
 
The human side would tell the stories of high school and college kids who can no longer find entry level jobs because the illegal aliens will work for less, no labor laws need to be followed, and many are paid under the table. One of our Hispanic American friends is livid because as he put it, when he was a kid in high school and needed money, he worked the harvest. His kids cannot do that because of the illegal aliens.  
 
The human side would tell the story of how Black Americans are getting pushed out of the labor force by illegal aliens; they are getting hit hard. 
 
The human side would discuss the crime that is following these illegal aliens into the USA. I am sure the family of Dani Countryman, the 14 year old girl brutally raped and murdered by illegal aliens would have something to say. Our government tries to cover it up, but 27% of inmates in our jails for non immigration crimes, are illegal aliens. When you consider that most illegal aliens when convicted on a non immigration crime are immediately deported, one has to wonder what % of our crime rate is really attributable to illegal aliens. 50%? 75% 
 
The human side would tell the story of New Haven, Conn. The nice kind hearted people there opened their doors to illegal aliens, giving them ID cards etc. They have been thanked by the arrival of MS13, the most violent gang in the world, who it appears has twice defaced the Vietnam War Memorial in town. 
 
The human side of the story would tell of the problems in the schools across the country when the illegal aliens arrive. For some reason, unlike legal immigrants, they think they are entitled to and need bilingual education. It is not immersion, these kids still hit high school not speaking much English. American kids\' education is being severely disrupted.  
 
The human side of the story is the demand by the illegal aliens for subsidized college tuition, then preferental treatment for citizenship for themselves and their families. 
Their proposal was to take financial aid money away from low income American kids, and give it to the illegals!  
 
The human side of the story is how our friends\' kid, brought up legally in the USA on a visa, wanted American citizeship and did not want to wait in line. So he took the one short cut, he joined the US military, did his 2 tours in Iraq, and is now an American. He earned it. The illegal alien kids want a free ride. 
 
The human side would tell the story of the American whose social security number was stolen and used by an illegal aliens. As a result the American: 
1. has spent 2 years trying to clean up the mess. 
2. credit has been destroyed, and lost the chance to close on the home they were buying. 
3. has to pay off 10\'s of thousands of dollars of the illegal alien\'s bills. 
4. permanently loses benefits from social security, which the American worked for. 
5. loses out on a job or a promotion because of the poor credit record. 
 
And there is no recourse against the illegal alien, who has just switched to a new set of fake id\'s and disappeared from view. 
 
Now, these peoples stories would break your heart.
Guest
Bettybb
8. 03-04-2008 17:26
re
Check out the latest assault on US Sovereignty. 
 
Don't be fooled Canadians. The Mexicans do believe the whole continent belongs to them. 
 
http://www.alipac.us/ftopicp-657935.html#657935
Guest
Bettybb
9. 03-04-2008 17:27
Pathological hatred
Wow...such hatred. I wonder if there were conversations like this in Germany in 1935. 
 
Have any of you who are filled with fear and hate thought about the fact that the decision to deem some as "illegal" is just a political judgement? How about treating the Mexicans the same way we treat Cubans who come here.
Guest
dissent@sover.netNOSPAM! ">rosemarie jackowski
10. 03-04-2008 18:08
Pathological hatred
What pathological hatred? 
 
That is the PR nonsense that the illegal alien supports spew when they have no arguments. 
 
Cubans come in as political refugess from a communist country. Mexicans are not under a totalitarian regieme.  
 
Are you seriously suggesting that the USA should open its borders to every single country in the world and say come on in? 
 
Gee, let's welcome a billion Chinese, 500 million people from India, and all of Africa, Central American and most of South America!  
 
No, the problem is the illegal aliens want racist preferential treatment over all other races and ethnic groups in the world. That is racist. That is pathological hate. That is flat out dispictable. 
 
Nope, the racist in this game are the illegal aliens and their supporters. Their arrogance is beyond belief. They think they deserve special treatment, that somehow they are better than everyone else in the world. Sorry, that is NOT the American way. The America way is THE RULE OF LAW.. ONE LAW THAT APPLIES TO EVERYONE.
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb
11. 03-04-2008 19:51
The Rule of Law
Ah yes, I love the Rule of Law. That means that it is time to arrest all of those who are involved in the illegal war and occupation of Iraq. Since the US started bombing Iraq in 1991, we have slaughtered more than 2 million Iraqi civilians, many of them children.
Guest
rosemarie jackowski
12. 03-04-2008 22:26
The Rule of Law
Rosemarie, 
 
I agree with you there. The Iraq war is an illegal war, and those responsible should be called to account. But it won't happen. Why? The "elite" in America has forgotten the rule of law, one law for everyone - they want immunity for telecom companies that allowed warrantless searches of innocent Americans records, they give immunity to torturers, and of course they are trying to push for amnesty and immunity for illegal aliens and all their crimes. 
 
It seems the American people are slowly, oh so slowly, starting to pay attention. They are saying no to the lawless illegal aliens, no to immunity for the telecom companies, and some are trying to get Bush and Cheney impeached. 
 
But once the rot seeps in, ie... special privileges for a few instead of following the rule of law, it is hard to dig it out. Those who want special treatment don't give up easily, especially when it is big business who wants the huge profits a premature North American integation would bring. 
 
Why won't big business wait? Well if Mexicans were required to create a real country, with a real economy, with real laws and European values like the rule of law applying, before entering as equals with Canada and the USA, the business would not get that cheap labor would  
 
Of course if you merge a third world country like Mexico with first world countries like Canada and the USA, the poor will flood out of their country and overwhelm the successful countries, basically reducing them to third world status economically.  
 
Other countries have commented that if the USA does not enforce its immigration laws, in 30 years it will be a third world country are right. 
 
Why Mexicans are not willing to build their own country I do not know. It may be that so large a percent of the population is uneducated that hey do not have the ability to do it.
Guest
13. 04-04-2008 01:32
The Rule of Law
It is not true that Americans think Illegal immigrants come here for Welfare benefits. We are well aware they are coming here for jobs. The problem is many do end up on some kind of public assistance, because in the US, a child born here is automatically a US citizen. As a US citizen, this child is entitled to all sorts of tax payer funded assistance. The illegal immigrants often take advantage of these programs for their American born children, We also have a mandate in this coun try that their children (illegal and American born) must attend school. This is a burden on local school systems, because they increase class size and the illegal immigrants do not contribute enough taxes to pay the teachers and upkeep the buildings. Also, they use our hospitals and do not pay for their medical bills. I can go on and on, but they think we are some kind of bank with unlimited resources. If you want illegal immigrants in Canada ---fine. You can have OURS!
Guest
ottpro@aol.comNOSPAM! ">ccollins
14. 04-04-2008 01:37
The Rule of Law
By the way, we did not need all those Mexican construction workers after all. Most of those houses have foreclosed and were never meant to be, because the people who had bought them could not really afford them. The whole ordeal was fraudulent. The housing boom was all phony baloney.
Guest
ottpro@aol.comNOSPAM! ">ccollins
15. 04-04-2008 01:54
The Rule of Law
I found this article full of hate and lack of understanding. It is an article which was written by someone who wants an excuse to rag on the US. This person has an agenda and just wants an issue or two to attack Americans. He rants some nonsense on an issue with no experiences to back it up, which proves he hasn't a clue about the impact illegal immigration has had on many communities here. This writer is a hack.
Guest
ottpro@aol.comNOSPAM! ">ccollins
16. 04-04-2008 03:17
The Rule of Law
Otto: 
 
The Mexican government rolled out a 25 million dollar PR campagin for February. Their message, coordinated with the groups in the USA was anyone who is against illegal immigration is guilty of hate speach, and hatred. 
 
Lots of "sob" articles have appeared since then. It also looks to be coordianted with a new push in Congress for preferential five year visas, and preferential quest worker visas. Also, Bush has a big push on to make it look like he is doing something to enforce the immigration laws and build the Fence.  
 
It is all a smoke screen. Before Christmas Congress passed provisions that gutted the Fence Act.. it is double fencing that works and that was deleted. Also they kept the vitual fence which everyone, the designer and the gov, agree doesn't work. 
 
They are tyring to block the SAVE Act, signed by 213 members of Congress, of both parties, which would begin gradually blocking of employmemt of illegal aliens. They hope to have some sort of preferential amnesty, or stepping stone to amnesty in place before the election. 
 
The problem is a tidal wave is sweeping the country, as people go to their State reps and tell them to crack down on this threat to our language, culture and nation. State after State is returning to the rule of law, and proving if you bar employers from using illegal labor, the illegals self deport. 
 
Americans are making their will known, and it is going to be harder and harder for the Neo Cons and the Dems to foist this on the American people. 
 
The lastest video of the Mexican Consulate employee claiming San Diego for Mexico, and the Absolut ad claiming all the West of the USA is part of Mexico is going to rile a lot of people. 
 
But Canadians need to beware. There really is a very large Mexican movement dedicated to takeing over the entire continent which the Mexican government and many groups claims is their by right. That Europeans have no right here and should leave. I really am not joking. And some of these groups preach genocide, and are indoctrinating little kids.  
 
I don't think Canadians have such malevolent groups in their society, and may not understand the power of this movement.
Guest
Bettybb
17. 04-04-2008 04:28
re=
This web site is Canadian based, that does not mean whomever writes for MWC is Canadian. 
 
The author is an American. Give it up already.
Guest
Shahram
18. 04-04-2008 03:32
WHAT COSTS MORE PER YEAR THAN THE IRAQ W
What costs more than the Iraq War?  
A REAL EYE OPENER. THESE ARE TOPICS TO ASK OF MCCAIN, CLINTON, AND OBAMA. DON'T YOU THINK? 
 
Illegal Aliens Cause Massive Cuts For US Seniors -- 
December 4, 2007 http://rense.com/general79/seniors.htm 
 
I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the  
reader gets sick of reading them. I have included the URL's for verification of the following facts: 
 
 
1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77 
 
2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html 
 
3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html 
 
4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and  
they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html 
 
5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html 
 
6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.  
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html 
 
7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html 
 
8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare and Social Services by the American taxpayers. http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html 
 
9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html 
 
10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two-and-a-half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US . http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html 
 
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens  
from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.  
Homeland Security Report. http://tinyurl.com/t9sht 
 
12. The National Policy Institute "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion ,  
or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period." http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf 
 
13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm 
 
14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ". http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml 
 
 
Total cost is a whopping... $338.3 BILLION A YEAR!!! 
If this doesn't bother you then just don't care, 
but on the other hand, if it does raise the hair on the back of your neck, then stand up to it. 
 
Snopes is provided for doubters: 
http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/bankofamerica.asp 
 
**Social Security Change For 2008** 
The United States Senate voted to extend Social Security Benefits  
to Illegal Aliens beginning in 2008. 
 
THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES  
NEEDS TO KNOW THIS INFORMATION, UNLESS THEY DON'T MIND SHARING THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY WITH  
ILLEGAL ALIENS WHO DIDN'T PAY A DIME. 
 
LET US SHOW OUR LEADERS IN WASHINGTON "PEOPLE POWER"  
AND THE POWER OF THE INTERNET 
IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT
Guest
19. 04-04-2008 13:57
Illegal?
I cannot believe what I am reading here, I have never realized the plethora of hatred that permeates the USA, it verges on the paranoia. Disregarding the accuracy or otherwise of the this article, it served the purpose of exposing the KKK mentality of the US to the World, it is shocking. What's this Aliens baloney? These are people! Thus they are equal to all others. These people you call 'Illegal Aliens', did not step out of UFOs. There is something disgusting here, if one has to ask, what? Then you cannot understand the answer. 
Fear can cause madness it seems. 
Am I being judgmental? No, I am genuinely disgusted!  
 
Mike
Registered
20. 04-04-2008 17:24
Thanks, Mike
Mike...Thanks for saying that. I am so ashamed and disgusted with some of the comments here. I have thought that some of the comments must be from young children who have no knowledge or understanding of history. The extreme gullibility of the writers of the obscene comments makes me wonder. Some people will believe anything.  
 
You are right. This line of comments exposed the KKK mentality that STILL exists among the misinformed in the US. 
 
It is hard to understand how anyone can be filled with such pathological hatred toward fellow human beings.
Guest
dissent@sover.netNOSPAM! ">rosemarie jackowski
21. 04-04-2008 18:31
Thanks, Mike
I see you read the Mexican government / anti legal immigrant, pro illegal aliens groups latest PR campaign memo. 
 
Are you being paid by the Mexican government? It is suprising how many of the pro 
illegal alien posters IPS is from Mexico. Hmmmm... 
 
Since you do not like the terminology, illegal alien, though it is the correct term in English, has a precise meaning, is the State Department term, and is also used in other contexts, like illegal doctors and illegal lawyers, I will use the word criminal instead.  
 
Good try with the spin. It won't work. The only racists/haters in this debate are the criminals and their supporters. 
 
Each one of their PR campaigns has fallen flat on its face. 
 
i). First it was, we need each other. Crininals benefit America, are hard working, and it impossible to deport so many. When all that was proven to be false it was... 
 
ii). Anyone for the enforcement of the rule of law and favoring USA security through properly enforced borders, was "racist", a "hater", "nativist", "anti immigrant", and "xenophobic". When that smear campaign was proved to be factually incorrect, it was... 
 
iii) Let's have a "reasonable compromise" like amnesty for all criminal breaking immigration laws, and, unstated, but included, all their non violent crimes, even felonies causing untold damage to their victims. When that fell on deaf ears, it has become... 
 
iv) The latest integration with Mexico groups are trying to abolish freedom of speech in the USA, by labeling any comment that does not support the illegal aliens' position as "hate speech" and get it banned. One commentator, Rubin Navarrette, went through a list of items that he considered hate speech. He said proposing that American's immigration laws should reject family reunification and concentrate on the need for specialized skills was hate speech. It was farcical.  
 
 
But what can the criminals and their supporters do? They have no valid arguments; the criminals, are, well... criminal.. and have broken mulitple laws. Their position and demands are totally racist, wanting preferences for Hispanics over everyone else in the world. The criminals are a HUGE economic drain on society, at least 328 billion per year net (after all their benefits are added); in California alone iti is 10.4 billion per year. It works out to a a net subsidy of $22,000 per criminal per year by the American taxpayer. 
 
That is a lot of charity. 
 
The problem is, America is a country of laws, or used to be, and the rule of law states one rule for everyone, applied equally.  
 
The criminals hate that.  
 
They keep demanding special rigths, greater than anyone else in the world. 
 
Really, their arrogance, and racism, is breathtaking.  
 
The Pew Hispanic Center says that at least 80% of illegals are Hispanic.  
 
American immigration law provides quotas to all countries so all Americans have a roughly equal chance to bring in family and race.  
 
Any amnesty or guest worker program or special visa would give a huge PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT to Hispanics over all other Americans, in both number of people allowed in, and timing of their arrival.  
 
Bush opened the southern border to promote integration, thereby giving preference in ability to come in illegally to Hispanics, especially Mexicans. The airports were kept shut. And as the numbers show, it worked, the vast majority of illegals are Mexican. 
 
And all political parties want amnesty so they can be the champions of the new post integration enlarged voting block, therefore they are only giving lip service to immigration enforcement. No other race is being given the opportunity to increase their voting block through massive illegal immigration. 
 
The US Constitution is quite clear. There is anti discrimination and an equal protection of the law clause. All Americans must be treated equally and there can be no racial preferences. 
 
In a nutshell, those pushing for amnesty provisions want to be able to place one group, illegal Hispanics, before all legal immigrants, all legal visa holders, all other legal guest workers, and before family reunification for all other races and ethnic groups.  
 
 
Americans love immigrants.. the legal ones, no matter where they come from. Criminals belong behind bars.
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb
22. 04-04-2008 18:47
Thanks, Mike
Does everyone notice the pro illegal alien supporters,..or for Mike who objects to the term.. the criminal supporters, who post here have not provide one fact, or even any arguments to support their position? 
 
All they have is name calling. 
 
Pathetic. 
 
.
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb
23. 04-04-2008 19:24
Sit down and listen
The rule of law applies to immigration as well. WE can't have millions of people pouring into the country and expect only a portion of the population to pay for everything. There has to be rules. WE can't have anarchy. Mike thinks it is "hate" to not like illegal immigration. I think it is frustration, not hate. He is confusing the emotions. Frustration can sometimes lead to anger. Mike interprets this as hate. Frustration leading to anger is not healthy for our communities. We take in more than 1 million immigrants a year legally into this country. It is not the case, which we want to stop immigration altogether. We just don't think it is wise to have people pour into the country unabated. Please, give us a break! Mike seems to only see one side. His side only. He leaves no room to see another point of view. We all understand and don't blame them for coming here, even illegally, but it is up to us to understand and weigh the impact on the existing citizens and legal immigrants and to set parameters for the immigration of additional people. This is only fair. We want to absorb immigrants, not be overwhelmed by them. In the long and short term, it is better for them as well.
Guest
ottpro@aol.comNOSPAM! ">ccollins
24. 04-04-2008 19:57
There is no compromise here...
The writer of this article is so ignorant it is hard to even take this thread seriously... 
 
Either you are part of the crowd that wants to put their head in the sand or the ones searching for a solution. Illegal immigration is a HUGE issue, and I find it very disturbing that the left puts Global Warming ahead of it in importance. Global Warming is now commanding billions of dollars in tax breaks and funding and yet there is very little emperical evidence that it caused by man. Hybrids? The environmental cost for producing those batteries is worse than 2 gasoline vehicles. But, enough about the ignorance of Global Warming... Lets look at the facts people... we spend over $300 billion a year on illegal immigrants. Would that money not be best spent elsewhere? Over 30-40% of prison population is illegal immigrants. Anyone that can do math would be able to figure out that our GNP (Gross National Product) will not sustain this type of activity for long periods of time. It is a simple matter of economics and common sense. The PR machine in this country is blinding us from the reality that we will soon become a welfare state if we continue on this path. We import more than we export and soon we will become a country of Rich and poor. The middle-class is being completely raped by the influx of cheap labor and outsourcing. The only people that benefit from illegal immigration are the rich. We have entire generations of legal american children that will not have jobs in 10-15 years. Ignoring this problem is like ignoring cancer. 
 
I leave you with this: 
 
TAXES EXPLAINED: 
 
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this: 
 
 
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. 
 
 
 
The fifth would pay $1. 
 
The sixth would pay $3. 
 
The seventh would pay $7. 
 
The eighth would pay $12. 
 
The ninth would pay $18. 
 
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59. 
 
So, that's what they decided to do. 
 
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until on day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you 
are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20."Drinks for the ten now cost just $80. 
 
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. 
But what about the other six men --- the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they 
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the 
sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by 
roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.  
 
And so: 
 
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings). 
 
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings). 
 
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings). 
 
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings). 
 
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings). 
 
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings). 
 
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four 
continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!" 
 
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. 
 
It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!" 
 
"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!" 
 
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" 
 
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between 
all of them for even half of the bill! 
 
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might 
start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier. 
 
For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.
Guest
25. 05-04-2008 05:18
Top End of Town.
ccolins, one must realize that the law of cause and affect seems to have come into play in the US regarding its outcome to the rest of the world, the (9/11) event, the so called Hispanic problems.  
These problems don\'t spring up from nowhere, there is a cause, best look at history. Also how much does it cost the US to run over 700 foreign bases? What is the true cost of that obscene war in Iraq, true cost not just the war effort, but the medical/psychological costs, lost earnings and so on. 
Who employs this cheap labor?, who benefits? 
It would be most unwise to couple ignorance with global warming. 
The corporate capitalist system always favor the top end of town. Mind you 
any power system favor the powerful, that can include communists, (power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely). 
What anyone may say, if the US is in the s@#t, who the hell put it there? 
By the way you don't seem to be full of hate 
, cant say that for some of the other commentators.  
 
Mike.
Registered
26. 05-04-2008 21:06
The biggest Con in history
The first rule of survival is to know who the enemy is. The attacks on the immigrants are a perfect example of "divide and conquer". Those in power have divided us and succeeded in the biggest con in history. They confiscated the wealth and power, while so many put the blame on the victims. We are victims. The Mexicans are victims. Just follow the money.
Guest
dissent@sover.netNOSPAM! ">rosemarie jackowski
27. 05-04-2008 22:42
The biggest Con in history
No question about it, the USA foreign policy under Bush is an abomination. 
 
And Bush and the Democratic leadership, big business, ie the "elite" are pushing for racist, anti constitutional immigration for North American integration, are only concerned with reaping huge profits for the rich.  
 
They don't care if Amerian's language, culture and nation are wiped out, and the American economy is reduced to third world status, with Americans losing all they and their forefather have worked to build.
Guest
Bettybb
28. 05-04-2008 22:46
The biggest Con in history
Now here are the real hate/racists. 
 
Here is rhe video of the Mexican Consulate employee claiming San Diego, CA belongs to Mexico 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HSgbeTegko  
 
Here is The Absolut ad in Mexico claiming the Western US for Mexico. 
http://www.alipac.us/ftopicp-657935.html#657935 
 
They have run ads and billboards in Mexico that support the Mexican “reconquest” movement’s inaccurate historical claim to about one third of US territory. 
 
At least parts of the “reconquest” movement are known to be very racist, and advocate genocide of all non-brown people.  
 
a) From the websites of this group chapters at American Universities. 
"MEChA's founding principles state: "In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny...” 
 
Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and no to the foreign Europeans..."For La Raza to do. Fuera de la Raza nada."  
 
”That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: "For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."  
 
”Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, founder of La Raza Unida Party, Director of "Movimiento Latino USA de Los Angeles", has proudly said:“We have an aging white America…. They are dying…. They are **** in their pants with fear! I love it!” He then demands: “We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him.”  
http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/JoseAngelGutierrezQuote.html 
 
 
b) A first hand account by a school teacher:  
“Their favorite graffiti phrase was “M.E.C.H.A,” which I later found out to be a school-sponsored hate group that used "Por la raza todo, fuera de la raza nada" as their motto. That means “Everything for the race. Everything outside the race, nothing.” Oh, they also preached for the extinction of all non-brown people. The hatred and intolerance that radiated from these students was absolutely pathetic, but not quite as pathetic as the school district’s silence on their behavior” 
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/11/19/024656.php 
 
 
 
 
Absolut’s justification is that they are an international company, and even though they mean no insult, and are not endorsing the Mexican view, their campaign is justified as it reflects the Mexican viewpoint and sentiments of a happier time. 
 
What next?  
 
Would an ad run in Sweden claiming half of Finland under the headline of an Absolut perfect world appeal to the Swedish viewpoint and sentiments of a happier time? 
 
Would an ad run in Germany claiming half of France under the headline of Deutchland Uber Alles, in an Absolut perfect world appeal to the German viewpoint and sentiments of a happier time? 
 
Would an ad run in Japan claiming Manchuria under the headline of Nanking is Ours, in an Absolut perfect world appeal to the Japanese sentiments viewpoint of a happier time? 
 
These ads are an outrage.  
 
These ads promote the distortion of history for political purposes, hatred, and by association with the “reconquest” movement, racial superiority of the Mexicans and the call for racial genocide 
 
Only thirteen percent of Mexicans who are entitled to take out American citizenship do so. Odd? 
 
Mexico is planning to install a Mexican Consulate in Idaho even though the number of Mexicans there does not warrant it. Check how many Mexican Consulates there are in the USA; it is an absurd number if it is merely for normal consular duties. 
 
President Calderon has said that anywhere Mexican are in the USA, Mexico is, that Mexicans have a civil right to be in the USA, and during his latest trip, that Mexico will integrate with Mexico, so Americans just better get use to the idea.  
 
In February alone, Mexico announced a $25 million on a PR campaign for that month alone to influence internal American affaires in order to benefit Mexicans even if the policies harm Americans.  
 
Clinton has a campaign manager who is ex high level La Raza (THE Race, as in the superior race) whose motto is also "For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing.", and one campaign manager who is ex high level MEChA.  
 
McCain's Hispanic Outreach person was a Cabinet member in Mexico's Vicente Fox's government and is openly for reconquest of Southwest USA. Some of his comments.  
 
“I never knew the border as a limitation; I’d be delighted if all of us could come and go between these two marvelous countries.”  
 
“We have recognized that the Mexican population is 100 million in Mexico and 23 million who live in the United States…We are a united nation.”  
 
Mexican immigrants “are going to keep one foot in Mexico and are not going to assimilate.”  
 
“We are betting that the Mexican population in the United States …will think Mexico first.”  
 
Obama is pro NAFTA, Free Trade which = pro North American Union. He lied to the American people about his intention to have “tough renegotiations” on NAFTA; he told Canada that to ignore his remarks as just “campaign rhetoric”. His wife works for the Council of Foreign Relations one of the major backers of North American integration. 
 
 
There is a large anti assimilation movement among Hispanics. There are many articles, but here is one.http://poraqui.com/latinonews/index.cfm?commentID=154 
 
It is obvious there is a coordinated campaign between the Mexican government, and the anti legal immigrant, pro illegal alien groups in the USA. Their various PR messages have been identical: 
 
i). First it was, we need each other. Illegal aliens benefit America, are hard working, and it impossible to deport so many. When all that was proven to be false it was... 
 
ii). Anyone for the enforcement of the rule of law and favoring USA security through properly enforced borders, was "racist", a "hater", "nativist", "anti immigrant", and "xenophobic". When that smear campaign was proved to be factually incorrect, it was... 
 
iii) Let's have a "reasonable compromise" like amnesty for all illegal aliens, and, unstated, but included, all their non violent crimes, even felonies causing untold damage to their victims. When that fell on deaf ears, it has become... 
 
iv) The latest integration with Mexico groups are trying to abolish freedom of speech in the USA, by labeling any comment that does not support the illegal aliens' position as "hate speech" and get it banned. One commentator, Rubin Navarrette, went through a list of items that he considered hate speech, like proposing that American's immigration laws should reject family reunification and concentrate on the need for specialized skills. It was farcical.  
 
They do not like the fact that the world invasion is used, even though their own groups use it to promote their concept of reconquest of the USA, or hoards, even though 12-36 million illegal aliens certainly is a hoard, or the word disease even though illegal aliens are brining in disease , the use of the term illegal alien even though it is an official State Department term with a precise meaning, and the word illegal is used to connote lack of requisite authority, like an illegal doctor and an illegal lawyer, and on and on... 
 
The jury is still out on the last one. But since there is a big push for special preferential visas for illegals, almost all Hispanic, right now in Congress, one must presume they timed their attempt at restriction of free speech to try and prevent Americans from hearing both sides of the issue.  
 
As the saying goes " All you need for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing." 
 
The print press is not reporting on any of this, and they should be.  
 
But people are talking boycott of Mexico and boycott of Absolut as well as any store or restaurant that stocks their products. 
 
Remember what happened in Germany in the 1930's when Germans ignored the unthinkable; the unthinkable occurred.
Guest
Bettybb
29. 06-04-2008 13:04
correct terminology
Bettybb...Mexicans ARE Americans.
Guest
dissent@sover.netNOSPAM! ">rosemarie jackowski
30. 06-04-2008 17:57
correct terminology
However, they are not United States citizens. Unless Mexico has become the 51st state, while I was at work or in the bathroom.
Guest
ottpro@aol.comNOSPAM! ">ccollins
31. 06-04-2008 20:42
Correct
Correct. People from Mexico are Mexicans. People from the US are USA'ers. All who live in North and South America are Americans. The 51st State is Israel.
Guest
dissent@sover.netNOSPAM! ">rosemarie jackowski
32. 07-04-2008 00:28
Correct
dissent: 
 
You said: 
correct terminology 
Bettybb...Mexicans ARE Americans 
 
 
Then why are we deporting them? Do they live on a North American Continent? Yes. 
 
Are they American citizens. No. 
 
Nice try at spin. 
 
But guess what, Mexico has been brain washing its people with false historical data (like Germany did, and the Japanese di ) in order to make a territorial claim. It keeps the peoples minds off the fact their own government is a total failure.... turn their anger outward.  
 
Sorry, American territory belongs to America. A large part of what Mexico claims is theirs was paid for. Does Mexico want to buy it back? Even if they handed over their entire country and the combined wealth of every person there, it would not come close to a market price. 
 
Mexicans, who claim to be such hard workers, should start working hard a making their country viable.
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Betttybb
33. 07-04-2008 03:47
semantics
Bettybb, 
You talk of spin, see the insert from the Wikipedia regarding Mexico: 
The United Mexican States[2] (Spanish: Estados Unidos Mexicanos (help·info)), or commonly Mexico (IPA: /Èm[ksjkoŠ/) (Spanish: México (help·info) IPA: [Èmexiko]), is a federal constitutional republic in North America. It is bounded on the north by the United States; on the south and west by the North Pacific Ocean; on the southeast by Guatemala, Belize, and the Caribbean Sea; and on the east by the Gulf of Mexico.[3][4] The United Mexican States is a federation comprising thirty-one states and a federal district, the capital Mexico City, which is one of the world's most populous cities. 
 
Of course Rosemaria is wrong , and so is the Wikipedia. 
The dates 1836 and 1848 may explain why some Mexicans are belly aching, aren't they extremist like yourself? 
Every one outside the USA regards Mexico as an American State(s).  
I am sure you are a nice person, but aren't you having your strings pulled 
by some? 
 
Mike
Registered
34. 09-04-2008 22:06
semantics
Mike, 
 
I take it English is not your first language. 
 
The world "state" has several meanings and can change depending on the context. 
 
Mexico is a union several areas called States. Not a single one of them is a State which forms part of the union called The United States of America. 
 
I see the Mexicans are at it again; repressing the original people who populated North and South America. Anactivist who was advocating or Indian rights within Mexico was murdered. 
 
 
You have to wonder if the Mexicans who are a mix of European, African and Indian people, want to wipe out the Indians so they can falsely claim that they were the first to settle the two continents?  
 
You seem like a nice person too, if misquided. How about answering my question,why don't the Mexicans work on creating a country for themselves?
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb
35. 09-04-2008 22:34
Your prejudice is showing...
Betty...the Mexicans HAD a country with a thriving economy until the U$A destroyed it.
Guest
dissent@sover.netNOSPAM! ">rosemarie jackowski
36. 10-04-2008 01:42
Your prejudice is showing...
When? 
 
The USA has kept Mexico solvent for the last 100 years. 
 
During Clinton's second term, Mexico was hours away from a total melt down, when the USA came to the rescue, once again. 
 
The Mexican government pushed and is contining to push for free trade. If you are unhappy with the results ( Americans detest NAFTA, exccept the elite), GO TALK TO YOUR Mexican govenment and tell them to back out of NAFTA. 
 
Really Mexicans need to address their own problems, not pass the blame to Americans and beg Americans to fix it. 
 
Mexico's economy is: 
10 % oil revenue soon to be depleted - another 9 years. 
20% money sent home by illegal aliens 
70% tourism; mostly American. 
 
Only 58% of Mexicans have some grade school education. It is basically an illiterate, third world society without any economic base. 
 
Again, why don't Mexicans build their own country so they don't have to rely on subsidies from the hard working American people.
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb
37. 10-04-2008 15:10
Trap!
Your comment, 
 
Mexico is a union several areas called States. Not a single one of them is a State which forms part of the union called The United States of America.  
 
I know! Original insert: The United Mexican States[2] (Spanish: Estados Unidos Mexicanos (help·info)), or commonly Mexico (IPA: /Èm[ksjkoŠ/) (Spanish: México (help·info) IPA: [Èmexiko]), is a federal constitutional republic in North America. It is bounded on the north by the United States; on the south and west by the North Pacific Ocean; on the southeast by Guatemala, Belize, and the Caribbean Sea; and on the east by the Gulf of Mexico.[3][4] The United Mexican States is a federation comprising thirty-one states and a federal district, the capital Mexico City, which is one of the world\'s most populous cities.  
 
You completely misread my comment, (inserted): 
Every one outside the USA regards Mexico as an American State(s).  
I did not write, ...regards Mexico as a state in the USA. 
You have equated American, as the USA, that shows your mind set, not my poor English.  
It was a trap, you fell in. 
Also I used the word state in this context, as purely generic.  
 
I think I know what Rosemarie is referring to, she is going back into history, the Wikipedia is a good source of information. With apologies to the words of a country music song. \'The US got the gold mine, Mexico got the shaft\'. 
And remember that Canada, is also in North America. 
Thus there are 3 countries as defined by the Wikipedia in North America. Canada, USA, and Mexico. If you do not agree, take it up with Wikipedia, not me. 
 
Peace, 
 
Mike
Registered
38. 10-04-2008 23:18
Trap!
Funny, none of the people I know from Central or South America refer to Mexico as \"America\", or as an American State. The family I lived with in Venezula never mentioned the term. 
 
Nor have any Canadians I know, and having lived and studied there several years, I know plenty, ever used the term America, or American State for Canada or for Mexico. 
 
I am actually pro North American Union, IF, it is done properly, like in Europe. You need: 
 
1. The consent of the governed by referendum each step of the way. There is no consent at all in the USA - the pro free trade forces are trying to slip it by using \"evolutionary stealth\". 
 
When the majority of Americans figure out what is going on, the s..t is going to hit the fan. 
 
Many Canadians are furious about the NAU. I have no idea what French Canada thinks, I should check it out with my friends there, but my quess, given their nationalism, and stauch defense of their language and culture is that they won\'t take this sitting down. 
 
2. It has to be structured to benefit all people; not just the greedy elite in each country. 
 
3. It has to be structured so each country keeps its own identity, culture and language. English and French in Canada, English in the USA, and Spanish and Mayan (if the Mexicans get over their discrimination against the indigenous people) in Mexico. 
 
4. Mexico can only come in as an equal. That means they have to clean up their act, educate their people, create a first world economy, create a clean political system, get rid of most of it\'s crime and corruption, and adopt European values. 
 
Spain and Greece were not allowed to join the European Union until they met these first world standards.  
 
Why? 
 
All economists will tell you that if you join a 1st world country with a third world one, the people flow out of the third world country, overwhelmit, and reduce it to third world conditions. 
 
But you have not answered my question. Why have the Mexicans, who are so ready to tout how hard working they are, and how lazy Americans are, not building their own first world economy? The \"lazy\" Americans have built the worlds greatest nation. 
 
It is time for Mexicans to stop trying to blame others for their problems, and to get busy creating a country of their own. 
 
Actually, a Mexican friend with whom I have had this conversation, said that the crime and corrrupution is so deep, and the societal flaws so great (think barely educated population) Mexicans cannot do it. He even suggested, that it might be benefial for the USA Marines to come 1/3 the way into Mexico and clean up that section, then once that was stable and these Mexicans could proceed to clean up the rest of their country , the USA would leave. 
 
Personnally, given the American track record, I think Mexicans would be foolish to let the US military in. Once anywhere, our politicans never pull out.
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb
39. 11-04-2008 14:46
NAFTA
I think I have found reference to some of the points Rosemarie made to the destruction of the Mexican economy this site is full of information:  
 
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/46/021.htmlU.S.  
 
I have pasted some info in. 
 
The last paragraph is almost prophetic, (the cockerel comes home to roost). 
 
President Bill Clinton is one of those most nervous. Having rammed the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) through Congress, Clinton is caught trying to salvage the trade agreement which helped produce the Mexican economic disaster. He sent an urgent appeal to Congress this week asking for swift approval of a $40 billion loan package to bail out the Mexican economy. 
However, Clinton\'s loans come with many odious strings. Sen. Jesse Helms (R-N.C.) said he would only support the deal if \"Mexico makes it a criminal act to try to leave the country without the necessary papers,\" a globalization of the racist, anti-immigrant Proposition 187 passed in California last November. 
The loans will also come at a steep price to Mexico\'s economy and sovereignty. One stipulation puts the Mexican oil industry up as the main collateral. Should Mexico fail to repay the loans according to the time table set down in the agreement, those U.S. banks, corporations and the government which contributed the loan money would be able to take possession of Mexico\'s most important industry. U.S. corporations have been chafing at the bit to regain control of Mexico\'s oil since the government nationalized the industry in the late 1930s.  
Opposition Democrats believe that the solution to Mexico\'s crisis is not massive loans, but a repeal of NAFTA. To that end, Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-Ohio) and 15 other Congressional Democrats said they would submit legislation to pull the U.S. out of NAFTA, ultimately killing the agreement. The Democrats believe that the loans would only serve to \"bail out businesses which moved their factories to Mexico\" in the wake of NAFTA, destroying thousands of U.S. jobs.  
The \"aid package\" is designed to recuperate losses for Mexican and US investors. It is an abuse of power by a few who use public institutions and monies in both countries to alleviate private financial losses. 
The people of both countries will be burdened for generations with unending public deficits, debt payments, shrinking social welfare policies and lowered standards of living. 
 
Just to add to the US citizens joy, the official Iraq war bill, is greater than 100 billion dollars per annum, there are over 250 thousand US troops around the world, and some where between 700 and 1000 US foreign bases in over sixty countries, you are spot on the US never leaves. And that lot must cost a dollar or two for the tax payer. 
The US is slipping into recession, it will probably take some countries down with it. 
Now here\'s a thought, the new Australian Government, wants to deal with the housing crises, it needs to build a lot of houses quickly, it wants to use US companies and their workers to compliment this program, as Australia has not the resources to do the job quickly, it\'s interesting. 
 
Mike
Registered
40. 12-04-2008 00:57
NAFTA
Mike,  
 
 
You still have not answered the question. Why? Is it because you don't like the answer? Mexicans are not willing to do the hard work and make the sacrafices to build a first world country. They would rather spin false historical claims and try to get into America and Canada.  
 
Do you know if you succeed it will not work? Unless a population has the requisite values and work ethnic and is willing to make the sacrifices, the country will fall to a third world level.  
 
If you want it, you have to earn it. There are no shortcuts. 
 
Didn't Mexico sign the NAFTA agreement?  
 
Then why are your complaining about America. Get your courage up and tell your own government to back out of the aqreement. 
 
Americans want out of NAFTA - except big business and the politicians, both Dem and Repub that are doing big business' bidding, and the print media who is also beholden to big business. But we are not whining to the the Mexicans - we are yelling at our politicians.  
 
NAFTA did not cause the Mexican economic collapse during Clinton's term; it had not been in effect long enough to have had those sever consequences... and it is still in force now... and why we support Mexico it is not the huge bail out that occurred under Clinton. 
 
No, Mexico has no real economy of its own. 
 
And if you as a population are not willing to do the work to build one, clean up your government, educate your people, abide by the rule of law, stop discriminating against others etc/.... well when you need a uge loan to keep you solvent, you have to expect there will be conditions. 
 
Would Mexico just hand over that kind of money to the USA without conditions? LOL 
 
By the way, there was nothing discriminatory about prop 187 in California - it only said that you have to be Ameican or a legal immigrant to get taxpayer benefits. 
 
gee, Mexico has the same rule.,.except I do not believe they allow legal immigrants benefits at all. 
 
Or are you saying MEXICO is racist and discriminats against immigrants? 
 
LOL. 
 
Are you being paid by the Mexican goverment to try and con people?
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb
41. 12-04-2008 05:07
They are doing alright!
Against your comment: 
 
\'Americans want out of NAFTA - except big business and the politicians, both Dem and Repub that are doing big business\' bidding, and the print media who is also beholden to big business. But we are not whining to the the Mexicans - we are yelling at our politicians.\'  
Wikipedia SAYS:- 
The economy of Mexico is the 13th largest in the world,[1] with a gross domestic product (by PPP estimate) that surpassed a trillion dollars in 2004,[2] measured in purchasing power parity. Mexico has a free market and export-oriented economy and is firmly established as an advanced middle-income country.[3] According to the World Bank\'s latest available figure (September 14, 2007), it has the highest income per capita in Latin America, in market exchange rates and the second in purchasing power parity.[4] Mexico is the only Latin American member of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. According to Golmansachs BRIMC review of emerging econimies, by 2050 Mexico will be the 6th largest economy in the world behind China, USA, India, Japan, and Brazil. [ 
Australian Government Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade SAYS:- 
Mexico Country Brief - December 2007 
 
 
5]Mexico is one of the world’s most important developing countries and a key economy in Latin America. Its size and geographical proximity to the world’s largest economy and NAFTA partner, the United States, and very good links to markets in Central and South America, make it an attractive trading partner for Australia. Given complementary economic and trade profiles, there are strong prospects for expanding Australia-Mexico trade and investment. 
It seems that Mr.Hornberger is touching the truth rather than grasping at illusions as the Mexico Phobics are it seems. 
 
Mike
Registered
42. 13-04-2008 04:08
They are doing alright!
If that quote is accurate, why are hoards of Mexicans risking their lives to break into the USA? 
 
They should trot on back to their own country where the economy, political system, and social values are soooo wonderful. 
 
Right. 
 
Why do illegal alien Mexicans, when captured, always say they are only trying to feed their families? 
 
Are they lying? 
 
How about the Mexican Drug Cartel? Bush forced Calderon to start to use the military to try and bring a semblance of civilization to the country as a condition of American aid. The half hearted effort is going nowhere. 
 
Violence is so bad, even the mayor of Juarez had to ask for USA protection. Americans are cancelling their travel to Mexico due to the violence. Mexican border towns are tanking due to the violence, and are pleading with Americans to come back. 
 
If America stopped propping up  
Mexico, it would economically collapse. Calderson has admitted that the money that the Mexican lawbreakers are sending back to Mexico is keeping the country afloat. So is American tourism, and American loans.  
 
In 9 years the oil is gone. Calerdon had admitted Mexico has not built it's infrasture. 
 
So, what is it? If Mexico is doing great, why are its people fleeing?  
 
If it is not doing great, why are its people not cleaning up the mess?
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb
43. 13-04-2008 08:15
Real Vllians.
Social values, the lack of I believe! 
But the problem aint going away, shout as you might. 
Too many corporate snouts in the trough both sides of the border, back to Mr.Hornberger. 
It does not serve the corporate agenda to have well paid Mexicans. I believe the greedy corporation, are the villains in the plot. 
Yours, mine and the Mexicans, all honest working people around the world have suffered from corporate greed, as long as we all keep fighting one another, they are happy, it diverts focus from them. That is my personal thoughts. 
Yours in introspection, 
 
Mike
Registered
44. 14-04-2008 18:49
Real Vllians.
Mexico needs to build a middle class. However, their national and local governments are too corrupt to allow that to happen. Corruption is holding them back. They also need to cut down on family size. They are producing babies faster than they can provide for them.
Guest
ottpro@aol.comNOSPAM! ">ccollins
45. 15-04-2008 01:03
Real Vllians.
I totally agree with you that corporate greed, and the greed of the elite in both USA and Mexico have created and are feeding this situation. 
 
It is the poor, and middle class who are getting screwed. 
 
Americans are starting to wake up and protest nafta and call their politicians to heel. Clinton has gotten the picture that something needs to be readjusted. McCain and Obama are still supporters of the elite. 
 
Mexicans in the USA should go back to their country and start protesting Nafta, start the corruption clean up, and building a real economy. There will be no incentive for the Mexican elite to do anything if they can get rid of the their problem by pushing their citizens into the usa and turning them into criminals. 
 
The Mexican elite has to feel the weight of the people around their neck, and realize they have no choice but to change. 
 
That won't happen unless Mexican return home and stand up to their government.
Guest
cdnbirch@aol.comNOSPAM! ">Bettybb