RON HARRIS: Like a lot of things are.

JIMMY MASSEY: Like a lot of things that you report, too, sir.

RON HARRIS: Well, whatever. But the thing is, Jimmy, here is the deal. Can you offer any corroboration, any whatsoever, any Marine on deep background? Anybody? And the fact is you can't. I have walked back through those things and the thing about it, Jimmy, if those things are true, man, we would be – I would be, you know, happy to report them. Like I said, we don’t – we’re not hiding anything that the Marines did. You can look at my stories, and you can see that Ron Harris did not hide anything that the Marines did.

JIMMY MASSEY: Alright, Mr. Harris, here’s the thing. Brad Gaumont –

RON HARRIS: Who?

JIMMY MASSEY: He repeated –

AMY GOODMAN: Who is that?

JIMMY MASSEY: See, you don't even know who Brad Gaumont is. He was the gunner that was in Lieutenant Shea's vehicle. You don't even have a clue about what you are talking about. Harris, you didn't interview Brad Gaumont either. If you did, Gaumont didn't repeat what he said into a Danish reporter's tape recorder last year, referring to civilians who were killed, “They had it coming anyways. Iraqis are scumbags.” You also quoted –

RON HARRIS: Wait, wait.

AMY GOODMAN: And you’re saying that is, that was the gunner, quoted by Dutch reporters?

JIMMY MASSEY: And that was Lieutenant Shea's gunner, the lead vehicle.

RON HARRIS: Did he say that – as I said, I have asked every journalist that was in that –

JIMMY MASSEY: Not journalist, sir. I'm talking about individual Marines. Did you actually go up and interview these actual Marines?

RON HARRIS: I did interview lots of Marines.

JIMMY MASSEY: And who did you interview, sir? Who did you interview at the Rashid compound? Because I would like to know. I have comments in quotes from those Marines, because we called and we recorded their information before we wrote the book, and they all rogered up to the fact that, yes, there were innocent civilians that was killed at the Rashid military complex.

RON HARRIS: Jimmy, you didn't do that.

JIMMY MASSEY: Sir, I have them on voice recording.

RON HARRIS: Jimmy, if you had all that, you would have presented it.

JIMMY MASSEY: I have it, sir.

RON HARRIS: You wouldn't present it.

JIMMY MASSEY: Do you want me to get a recorder and bring it? What?

RON HARRIS: I presented the information. I’ve interviewed Marines. I’ve interviewed journalists. I’ve interviewed everybody that I could put my hands on that was there, and I’ve tried, not to disprove what you said, to prove what you said.

JIMMY MASSEY: Okay, here is another one, sir. Jeffrey Fowler –

RON HARRIS: Jimmy, can I finish?

JIMMY MASSEY: Sure.

RON HARRIS: Thank you. Let’s just tone it down. I tried to prove what you said, not to disprove what you said. That’s not my goal, to disprove what you said. If what you said was true, then I certainly –

JIMMY MASSEY: What the question is, is you did no investigative journalism whatsoever while you were in Iraq, and now you complied with what Lieutenant Colonel Belcher said on these particular incidents. The true question is that embedded journalism is not working in Iraq.

AMY GOODMAN: We are talking –

RON HARRIS: Jimmy, when I was in Iraq and in the Rashid complex being shot at just like you and other Marines –

JIMMY MASSEY: You were never – How were you shot at, sir? Who shot at you? Because if you were in the position that I was in, I was never shot at at Rashid, so that goes to further prove that you weren’t there.

AMY GOODMAN: Let him respond. Jimmy, let him respond. Let him respond to the question of how Ron Harris was shot at.

RON HARRIS: Not only was I being shot at, also we have photographs of the Marines being shot at, photographs of the Marines returning fire. Mike Phillips, Wall Street Journal, was there, he was being shot at. Ron Haviv of VII Agency, he was there, he was being shot at. Andrew Cutraro shot the photographs. Now, as you and I both know, the Rashid Military Complex is very large, and I took you at your word. I said, ‘Well, maybe Jimmy was at a location where these nine protesters got shot, and I wasn’t there. Maybe he was on a whole other side.’ And I said, ‘Maybe that’s true. Let me track that information down.’ And Jimmy, I can't corroborate that at all. And that’s the thing is that –

JIMMY MASSEY: Well, yeah, okay, well, let me ask you this.

AMY GOODMAN: Wait, wait. Jimmy Massey, why don't you respond to that about protesters being shot?

JIMMY MASSEY: First, I would like to say, why would the military admit to atrocities now? They’ve never admitted to atrocities in Vietnam. And then, furthermore, Mr. Fowler, Corporal Fowler: “There were no explosives but it was highly probable there could have been weapons. We were all” – this is an exact quote from Mr. Fowler. “We were all pissed off at shooting women and children. Nobody was doing it on purpose, but they were doing it. They were killing civilians and plenty of them.”

RON HARRIS: Wait, but you said nobody was doing it on purpose?

AMY GOODMAN: He’s quoting. You are quoting Fowler?

JIMMY MASSEY: Yes, I'm quoting from Fowler, yes.

RON HARRIS: Who is -- You’re quoting from Fowler. He said – you are right, Jimmy. In fact, the second shooting of civilians –

JIMMY MASSEY: Now.

RON HARRIS: Can I finish?

JIMMY MASSEY: Sure, sure. I’m sorry.

RON HARRIS: The second shooting of civilians that we reported, the way I found out about it, Marines were pissed off. And they were pissed off at each other. They were pissed off that somebody had accidentally shot some civilians, and they were furious.

AMY GOODMAN: I'm going to interrupt, because we just have 30 seconds. Jimmy Massey, you are known for saying in different places and in graphic testimony at the Canadian tribunal, probing an asylum claim by Jeremy Hinzman, that you were involved with the killing, your unit killed more than 30 innocent Iraqi civilians in just two days. Do you stand by what you said?

JIMMY MASSEY: No, I actually have to retract that. It wasn't until I sat down and I starting writing the book that I realized that it was actually 30 over a three-month time period. It took me sitting down with counselors and therapists and actually writing the book, which was a form of therapy for me, to recall and to have these flashbacks. So, that was an error on my part. It was 30-plus over a three-month time period.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to have to leave it there. Jimmy Massey, former Marine staff sergeant, honorably discharged in December 2003. Ron Harris, Washington correspondent of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. That does it for today’s broadcast. I want to thank you both for being with us.

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