AMY GOODMAN: But for the next two years, you would meet with Malcolm regularly. Can you talk about the meetings, the sessions he had that you would attend?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Well, they had regular meetings, you know. But it seems like Elijah and Malcolm's problems were getting a little more serious, and I think because F.B.I. played a role in it, and, of course, they knew which ones of the people in N.O.I. may have had some kind of ill feelings.

AMY GOODMAN: Nation of Islam.

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Mm-hmm. And things got more serious. There were more articles in the newspaper, and everyone knew that Malcolm's life was in danger. But also, about that time, I didn't realize until you said right now, that Kennedy was killed only two months?

AMY GOODMAN: Only a month after you and Malcolm X first met.

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Only a month after. Oh, because it was November.

AMY GOODMAN: Right. It was the last two years also of Malcolm X's life. 1963 to 1965, when he was assassinated, as well. You received -- Malcolm X wrote you postcards through his trip through Africa and his journey to Mecca.

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: What did he write to you in these postcards?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Well, he sent eleven and from nine countries. There were two countries he went twice. But at the time that he went to Africa, all of the major African conferences were happening. Two were even happening in England. And Malcolm went to all of these, and, of course, all the most progressive presidents of African nations were at these conferences. So he got to meet almost all the top ones. I mean, there was Ghana’s Nkrumah or Tanzania’s [Nyerere]. I can’t even think of all of them, but he met about eleven of them, and they were as excited to meet him.

He wanted to learn all about the different countries in Africa. And he – the Africans and he talked about the colonization that took place. Well, it could have happened from even as early as the 1600s, but it was mostly 1700, 1800. And the big day that we’ve got to remember is, I think, 1885. That was where all those European countries took over African countries. What was the name of that? Gosh, I would forget the name. Wait. It might come back to us.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me ask you about this. When Malcolm came back, he was also talking about an expanded attitude about human rights, something he had talked about before, as well. Not so much civil rights, but the rights of African Americans to be fully equal was an issue of international human rights.

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Oh, yes. And that's why Malcolm thought that this civil rights thing was really nothing, because African people don't have to wait until some president of another country, even United States, would give civil rights. I mean, Africans already have human rights. And he felt, too, that it was too narrowed down when they would be using words that they were just fighting for civil rights. And I think what was so wonderful is that Malcolm taught his group, American – well, black Americans here, about the history of Africa, where they became colonized, and then he told the people in Africa what was happening here, how blacks were treated, and that many of the African young people didn't even know anything hardly about slavery, because this country never told them anything.

AMY GOODMAN: Yuri Kochiyama, he also came to your house to meet with survivors of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki: Hibakusha, the survivors. Can you talk about that?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Right. Well, we were all so happy, I mean, especially Japanese Americans and even other Asian Americans, that Malcolm would be interested. But Malcolm was interested in every group, and especially when he would hear the kind of harassments and all the negative things that always seemed to be happening to people of color. And he knew about Asian history so well. We couldn't believe it.

I mean, I wasn't sure he was even coming, so I didn't know if I should put out leaflets, but the word went around, I guess, and I couldn't believe that the day that Malcolm came, our house was packed. Every bedroom -- we have four bedrooms -- and the kitchen and the hallway. And we had blacks and whites and Puerto Ricans or anyone else, but they were mostly all activists. Now, there were, as I say, blacks, but there were none of Malcolm's people. No nationalists, no Muslims, no radicals. I mean, the blacks were mostly all civil rights activists. The whites, of course, were also.

At first, people didn't know whether they should go up to him and ask if they could shake his hand. They didn't know if he might even be very cold to them, because their theology was quite different from Malcolm. But as soon as the first person went up to see if he would shake anyone's hand, and Malcolm was so warm to the person -- I think the first one was white -- that everybody started going to Malcolm, and he was so wonderful to each one. He was very warm to them. And he really -- you could see he acted like he was so glad to meet all these people. But then, because it would take too long if everybody would come in from the other rooms to shake his hand --

AMY GOODMAN: But he then heard the testimony of the Hibakusha, of the survivors?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Oh, yes.

AMY GOODMAN: That's why he had come, to meet --

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: -- this delegation that had come from Japan.

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Right. I mean, for months before, they said they were coming, and there was about 40. But he had told us 40 people in your little room, he said, no, they -- just limit it maybe to the ones who were the reporters or writers. And so, the other Japanese who were not, they felt very disappointed and hurt. But their writers came. There were only three, because the writers themselves said they didn't want any translation, because each time then, it would take time. Malcolm would say a few words. Then everybody has to keep quiet, while somebody interprets, and it would keep going like that. So they said no translators. And it went well, I think better, because he didn't have to stop and have the translation. And --

AMY GOODMAN: We don't have much time, Yuri Kochiyama, but I just wanted to end, as we talk about Japan and World War II, by talking about your own experience and what ultimately politicized you, and that was what happened to your family on the day that Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Where did you live? How old were you then?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: I lived in San Pedro, California, which is, you know, on the west side of California, and it’s where many, many Japanese lived. Well, the Japanese were mostly all living on the West Coast: Washington, Oregon, California and parts of Arizona. And that’s the number one war zone. But immediately, the newspaper headlines were “Get the Japs Out!” and people like -- who is the guy, that general on the West Coast, the top one, the top general? I can’t think of his name. He said, “The only good Jap is a dead Jap.” And, anyway, not just the newspaper headlines, but there were signs all over. “Get the Japs out! Get the Japs out!” And --

AMY GOODMAN: You were a teacher? You were teaching that day that Pearl Harbor was bombed?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: No. No. I had just finished junior college. No, I wasn't teaching. But I was teaching Sunday school. And I had been teaching about a year-and-a-half. It was a place where I felt very comfortable. But that day, when I went in, I could just feel something was different. And, of course, because that's all people were thinking about is --

AMY GOODMAN: Were you the only Japanese American at the Sunday school?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Oh, yeah. It was really what’s called a white church. So I took all the kids home, as I usually do. They pack in the car, sit on top of each other, and I take about ten of the kids home. And then, when I came home, I was -- just made it home. I knew my father had come back from the hospital, so I came back early, too. And just a few minutes later, three tall white men, I could see through the window. They were right there at the door.

And so I went there to see who they were. And they all, you know, put their -- like a wallet out, which had the F.B.I. card. And they said, “Is there a Seichi Nakahara living here?” I said, “Yes, that's my father.” They said, “Where is he right now? We need to see him.” I said, “Oh, he's sleeping in bed.” I said, “He just came home.” I don't know if it was that morning or the day before, he came home from ulcer surgery. And they said, “Well, where is he?” And I pointed to one of the bedrooms. And they went in and got -- it was done so quickly, it didn’t even take a half of a minute, I don't think. And I didn't dare ask a question. They were going out the door immediately. And then, I just called my mother, who was right down the street to say, “Come home quick. The F.B.I. just came and took pop.” And --

AMY GOODMAN: He was the first person, Japanese American, arrested after the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: That's what we heard, but I don't know if it was the first. They could have been doing it all over, but I think he was one of the first, because the first -- in 24 hours, I didn't -- I don't think they were -- well, they did find the Japanese still very quickly. So I'm sure they had a list. And --

AMY GOODMAN: What was his job, that they went after him?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Well, he was in the fishing business. That's why it hit all fishermen, because they knew then that the fishermen knew the waters, and if the Japanese ships got close enough, would the Japanese fishermen in America help the Japanese? But, actually, I tell you, the Japanese Americans and even the Isseis, first generation, who could not become Americans, they were so American. And yet, the hysteria about the suspicion of Japanese people was very, very strong. And, anyway, by the end of the day, I think all the Japanese people were calling their friends to say, “Did anyone come to your home and take your father or mother?”

AMY GOODMAN: How long was your father held for?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Well, he was picked up on December 7. And, of course, he wasn't getting any better, because they didn't do anything for him while he was -- first, he was in prison. And my mother kept begging, “Please let him go to a hospital, and then when he gets some treatment, then he could go back to the prison.” But we didn't realize that when they did take him to the hospital, he was the only Japanese that was taken there, and all the other prisoners, every single one of the prisoners, were Americans, all white, no black or brown or anyone else. And I --

AMY GOODMAN: In the hospital.

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Yes, in the only hospital in our town, San Pedro Hospital. And then they put a sheet around his bed, and it said, "Prisoner of war." And we hadn't -- us kids didn't get to go see my father yet, but my mother got permission, and she said when she saw the sheet with the “prisoner of war,” and she saw the reaction of all the American prisoners who were just brought in from Wake Island, she didn't think he was going to last. And so, she asked the head of that hospital, could he be given a room by himself and get some medication or something, and then when he was feeling better, could they take him back to the prison, because that hospital, she said, was probably worse than prison, because here were all these Americans who had been injured, you know, in Wake Island or other islands, and at least in the prison, he would be in a -- probably in a cell by himself.

AMY GOODMAN: When, ultimately, did he get released? How long was he held?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: He came home. He was home not even twelve hours. He came home, it was around dinner time, 5:30. And they had a nurse come with him. And we put him in his own bedroom. And the nurse was the only one that stayed in that room. And by the next morning, she woke us up and said, “He's gone.”

AMY GOODMAN: Were you rounded up, as well?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Not then. No. They were only rounding up first generation Japanese.

AMY GOODMAN: So your father died --

YURI KOCHIYAMA: We were American citizens.

AMY GOODMAN: Your father died after being released?

YURI KOCHIYAMA: Yeah.