AMY GOODMAN: Sidney Blumenthal?

SIDNEY BLUMENTHAL: Well, Norman has views on this, and I think this is a very serious case in many, many ways. There was a serious law broken, which is why there's a special counsel appointed, and it's a very serious investigation. No one knows exactly what Fitzgerald is doing right now. He has acted in a very professional way, unlike Ken Starr. He does not leak illegally to the press. He does not play this game politically. Even though he's a Republican, nominally, he has not favored Republicans in his past work as U.S. Attorney in the Northern District of Illinois. And his record there shows that he puts Republicans and Democrats under the same level of scrutiny. I think that's very important when what he does is finally played out and he is judged on the basis of his own professionalism, because I think it will come down to that.

How this plays out, I don't know. Certainly, I think that Karl Rove has lied publicly about his role. The President said anyone who was involved in this should be fired. Rove clearly falls under that. He is not being fired. The President's word is not his bond. What were called the highest standards are not being met, and the reason is that Rove is indispensable to the operation, politically, of this administration and of Bush's political career. He has been involved right now in the selection of Supreme Court Justices. So, Rove is still very centrally involved, and we can see his style being played out in the smears against Wilson, as Richard Clarke, Counterterrorism Chief, was smeared, as Paul O'Neill, the former Secretary of the Treasury was smeared. It's a very consistent pattern, and it's Rove's style.

AMY GOODMAN: Sidney Blumenthal, Norman Solomon, we have to break, but we’d like to come back with this discussion in just 60 seconds. This is Democracy Now! We're talking about Karl Rove, about Joseph Wilson, the outing of his wife, Valerie Plame, as an undercover C.I.A. operative and we're talking about the context in which all of this is taking place: the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Sidney Blumenthal, former senior advisor to President Clinton. Norman Solomon, author of the book War Made Easy: How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking about the latest controversy in Washington, the outing of the undercover operative, C.I.A. operative, Valerie Plame, and all that entails, particularly focusing on Karl Rove, top adviser to President Bush, whom many have called “Bush's brain.” Our guests are Norman Solomon, founder -- one of the founders of Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, Institute for Public Accuracy and author of the book War Made Easy. Sidney Blumenthal is on the line with us from Washington, former assistant -- senior adviser to President Clinton, wrote the book, The Clinton Wars, and his latest article is called “Rove's War" at Salon.com. Let me get your response, Sidney Blumenthal, to Norman Solomon's charge, that right now, Howard Dean, the Chair of the Democratic National Committee going to whether the Democrats deal differently than the Republicans when it comes to bombing and going to war, that Howard Dean, in fact, is pro-war and leading the Democratic Party in that direction.

SIDNEY BLUMENTHAL: Well, I’m not interested in, you know, applying rhetorical labels like Norman is. I think that there are a number of Democrats who have a different --

AMY GOODMAN: Norman?

NORMAN SOLOMON: Could I say something? Sid, excuse me.

SIDNEY BLUMENTHAL: No, I haven't finished speaking.

NORMAN SOLOMON: Could I just – well, you referred to me, and I'd just like to say something. During the Vietnam War, would you think it would have been rhetorical to ask whether leaders of the Democratic or Republican Parties were pro-war? Would that be simply rhetorical, do you think?

SIDNEY BLUMENTHAL: Well, I’m glad you allow me to speak now. Here's what I think. I think that if you look at the statements -- I can’t speak for Howard Dean. I’m not his spokesman. I don't pretend to be his spokesman, nor I do want to be his spokesman, nor am I speaking for any Democratic elected official or appointed official, like Dean. What I would say is that, as I understand it, and as I was saying, Democratic figures have a variety of positions across the board, from Joe Biden, who has offered various remedies -- whether they would be effective or not I can’t say; they certainly haven't been applied by this administration -- all the way to people who urge immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops.

I think that all of them believe, including Dean, that -- as I think I’m fairly representing their positions -- that Bush has committed blunders in the war, whether or not Democrats supported the war in voting for a resolution in the fall of 2002, and -- in the Senate, and I think they all generally agree that Bush committed blunders in the immediate aftermath of the war and that we are left with a mess that presents the country and our national security with all sorts of problems. People don't have answers, because I don't think there are simple answers here. And there's no simple party position. I think calling it pro-war really removes the kind of nuance that Bush has contempt for. So, I don't know where that gets you in a discussion. It's the kind of rhetoric that prevents discussion rather than opens it.

AMY GOODMAN: Norman Solomon, your response.

NORMAN SOLOMON: Sid, I think it's about clarity. I mean, we should call things what they are. If it's a pro-war position, and presumably it maybe can be defended, let's call it for what it is, otherwise it seems we are kind of tap-dancing while the blood continues to run. We remember that Martin Luther King, Jr. denounced what he called the “madness of militarism.” And I wonder if you feel today that we have madness of militarism in this country that both political parties on Capitol Hill are part of.

SIDNEY BLUMENTHAL: Well, I appreciate your position, Norman. You know, I think that one of the problems that the Democrats face is that they have no responsibility or authority in this matter. And they're not listened to. One of the political realities that I think everyone needs to be very mindful of is that the Republicans are in charge. This is very hard for people to recognize, very different from the situation you described during the Vietnam War, when you had, at least under Nixon, a Democratic Congress, Democratically-controlled Congress. It's not the case now. We have one-party government. And the leadership, Republican leadership of the Congress, takes the lead of the Bush administration on national security and on Iraq policy.

And what the democrats say, even if it might be effective, is not listened to. The ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Joe Biden, has many specific policy recommendations. He is not heeded by the Bush administration. So whatever you might say rhetorically is whistling in the wind when the Bush administration has complete, total, thorough and ultimate responsibility for every sparrow on the ground in Iraq, and the Democrats have none.