AMY GOODMAN: Our guest is Professor of Middle East and South Asian History at the University of Michigan, Juan Cole, as we talk about what's happening in Iraq, as we talk about what's happening in Lebanon. This is Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld yesterday.

DONALD RUMSFELD: If we left Iraq prematurely, as the terrorists demand, the enemy would tell us to leave Afghanistan and then withdraw from the Middle East. And if we left the Middle East, they would order us and all those who don't share their militant ideology to leave what they call the occupied Muslim lands, from Spain to the Philippines. And then we would face not only the evil ideology of these violent extremists, but an enemy that will have grown accustomed to succeeding in telling free people everywhere what to do.

AMY GOODMAN: Professor Juan Cole, your response?

JUAN COLE: Well, first of all, if he means by "we" the U.S. Pentagon, what are they doing in Spain and the Philippines anyway? But the fact is, this is just a domino kind of thinking from the 1960s, which was fairly ridiculous at the time when applied to communism and has become completely ridiculous when applied to al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is a small network of maybe 5,000 terrorists spread around 60 countries. They're not going to take over the Philippines and Spain if we withdraw from Iraq. That's ridiculous. Every time Rumsfeld opens his mouth, I just wonder what dimension this man is coming from.

AMY GOODMAN: And Hillary Rodham Clinton calling for his resignation?

JUAN COLE: Well, I mean, people much closer to the Pentagon than she have called for his resignation repeatedly, high generals who are now retired. I mean, anyone can look at the conduct of the U.S. military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and conclude that whoever is in charge is either incompetent or a fool, or both.

AMY GOODMAN: Juan Cole, you have written a piece called "A Ceasefire Call in Lebanon Bush Can't Ignore." Talk about who's making the call.

JUAN COLE: Well, the ceasefire has been called for by virtually everybody, the entire Muslim world, most of Europe, the Pope and Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani. Sistani is the leader, the spiritual leader of not only the Iraqi Shiite community, but of most of the Shiites who live outside of Iran, Pakistan and elsewhere. So for the United States now to oppose Sistani on the ceasefire call deeply endangers the U.S. troops and the British troops that are in Iraq. They are already facing a determined and fairly successful guerrilla movement among the Sunni Arab population. If the majority Shiites now become militantly anti-American and begin attacking the troops, they can cut off fuel to them, they can hit them, causing casualties. It can much worsen our already very bad situation.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to play for you a clip of an interview we’re going to play after we talk to you with Mohamad Bazzi, Newsday's Middle East Bureau Chief. He's based in Beirut. I asked him whether he thought the Lebanese government could fall.

MOHAMAD BAZZI: I think there is a possibility. I’ve also heard that -- I've heard some talk that the Lebanese government might actually resign, almost as a way to embarrass the United States even further, because this Lebanese government, most of its members, the majority is backed by the U.S., and the Prime Minister Fouad Siniora is someone who was an ally of Rafik Hariri, and so he had ties to the West that way, and the U.S. was very happy that he was chosen as prime minister. And there is some talk that they might resign as a way to embarrass the U.S., and there is also -- they are in a pretty good position at this point. A lot of people were impressed by how they've handled this, especially in the past week or so, and especially after Qana on Sunday, where they really drew the line and told Rice not to visit Beirut and where they said we’re not going to negotiate over anything at this point until there’s a ceasefire.

AMY GOODMAN: Newsday reporter Mohamad Bazzi, speaking to us from Lebanon. Juan Cole, your response?

JUAN COLE: Well, you know, all of the political progress that has been made in Lebanon in the past year and a half has now been undone. The country is in ruins. Over $2 billion have been done to its economy. The government is increasingly unable to assert itself. I mean, if you knock out all of the major roads and bridges, then how can the government get government bureaucrats and military out, and aid workers and so forth out to where they’re needed? Basically, Lebanon is being crippled, and so it really doesn't matter whether the government falls or not, because the government is not able to function under these conditions. Lebanon is being paralyzed as a civilized society. It’s being reduced to rubble. And so, they can resign or they can not resign, but the fact is the country cannot any longer function.