AMY GOODMAN: And what kind of role or influence does he have with the current Iranian leadership?

ROBERT FISK: I don't think it's got anything to do with that. I think he has a tremendous standing as a scholar throughout the Islamic world, which is why he got a visa. If he had too close a relationship or even too hostile a relationship with Ahmadinejad, I don't think he would have got his visa to the United States. I mean, the mere fact that this big meeting here was effectively a meeting of Sunni Muslims -- there was not a lot of Shiites around that I have seen. It's pro-Saudi in its essence. The mere fact that it regarded him as such an honored figure to come, from the Shiite world and as a leading Shiite cleric, speaks for itself.

In fact, he's going from here to Geneva, where he's founded an institute, I think for civic responsibility or civic society. And he's then going to meet the Pope in Rome in October. He’s going to meet the Archbishop of Canterbury. He’s receiving an honorary degree from a university in Scotland in the United Kingdom. So, this is a man who has considerable status. But whether it's the status of a Nelson Mandela or the status of a Kofi Annan, which I would rather not have at the moment, I’m not sure.

AMY GOODMAN: And weapons of mass destruction in Iran that the U.S. government, not only, and perhaps more importantly, the U.S. press, continually raises.

ROBERT FISK: Yeah. Well, he -- I mean, I didn't question him about it, because it seemed to me that he had basically dealt with this on Saturday night, because in his speech he talked repeatedly about Islamophobia and the way the media hypes constantly and changes the direction.

And I wasn’t really interested in it, because, you see, from my point of view, I think there is a Muslim nation, which is extremely dangerous to the West, which is packed with Taliban and al-Qaeda supporters and which does have a bomb, and it's called Pakistan. And that's the real crisis. And the more you get involved in discussing the crisis in Iran, the crisis in Iran, the crisis in Iran, you help to put building blocks and foundation stones underneath the Bush administration’s policies, because it's the story. And I think Pakistan is the story. I think Pakistan is a very dangerous place. I think Pervez Musharraf is playing this balancing game between the military and the ISI, the Intelligence Services, and the Taliban supporters and the large number of extreme Sunni groups in Balujistan and other parts of the northwest territories.

AMY GOODMAN: Would you call Musharraf a military dictator?

ROBERT FISK: Oh, he is a military dictator. I always call him the president-general in my articles, which is what he is. If you talk to him, he actually admits that, quite frankly. I mean, given the status, the state in which Pakistani democracy existed and the amount of corruption in it, you can see how he can claim to power quite well.

But the fact is, he knows that the Pakistani ISI, the Inter-Services Intelligence, is giving intelligence and money to the Taliban. I mean, the Taliban, around Kandahar Province now, are rich with cash. They've got a lot of money. Now, where’s it coming from? It’s probably coming, a little bit of it, from Iran, which originally used to talk about the “Black Taliban” and didn't like them, but now it’s quite happy to keep them where they are to keep the Americans busy. And a lot of it must be coming probably from Saudi Arabia via the ISI in Pakistan. But, of course, this is a subject which is not going to be discussed upfront between the Americans and Musharraf, because he’s our friend in the war on terror. That’s part of the scenery, and you mustn’t sort of strip any wallpaper off, because you might not know -- you don't know what you’re going to find behind it, do you?

AMY GOODMAN: So why does the U.S. continue to fight in Afghanistan, losing soldiers?

ROBERT FISK: And losing an awful lot of civilians, of course. The last report, after the British lost a plane with 14 men on board -- it’s in this morning’s papers -- 400 Taliban killed. This is a report from, you know, coalition headquarters. Well, how do they know they’ve killed 400? Some of them must have been civilians. You don’t kill -- this is like Vietnam-type reporting. ‘500 Vietnamese soldiers were reported killed in the Mekong Delta.’ There are always civilians among them.

It also says that four more Canadians have been killed. And that’s putting Canada as getting a lot of dead Canadian soldiers back at the moment. And a lot of people are beginning to question Stephen Harper's wisdom in sending those Canadian troops. You know, another bit like Blair, very keen to show his loyalty to Mr. Bush. That's the effect of Afghanistan internationally at the moment. It's not the fact that it’s a loss. It’s the fact that a lot of dead soldiers are coming home.

AMY GOODMAN: And yet, the U.S. continues to support Musharraf, who is shoring up --

ROBERT FISK: Well, they’re worried about who will come afterwards, you see. I mean, we’re all worried. The reason why they don't really want to topple the President Bashar al-Assad is that maybe those horrible Sunnis from Iraq will cross the border and turn up in Damascus, and that wouldn’t be a good idea, would it? I mean, you can only go on with this policy of ideological self-delusion for so long.

I mean, I watched Condoleezza Rice twice now visiting Beirut, once before the war, the last war, and then once in it. Before she came the last time, ‘There’s a new Middle East. Great new possibilities, great things are happening in the Middle East.’ I thought, well, Iraq’s on fire, and Afghanistan’s on fire, and there’s increasing tensions in southern Lebanon. Then she comes during the war, and we're all watching babies being pulled dead out of buildings that have been hit by the Israelis, and she announces that it's the birth pangs of a new Middle East. Well, in the hospital wards, there's an awful lot of blood, and it’s not from birth pangs, it’s from dying children.