Well said. 
David

Guest

The Falun Gong - CBC- PRC Saga

Ms. Beaulieu makes some good points. Mr. Rowe is to be commended for making a documentary about a persecution of good people that has been going on for 8 years! Why was he fettered by CBC censorhip when The Lens is a program that purports to air independent filmaker's works? One has to wonder why the CBC had to water down the truth.  
The situation for practitioners of Falun Gong in China is of interest to a lot of Canadian viewers. There has been a dearth of reporting on this topic and we would like to know the facts. A representative of the Chinese embassy in Canada is not a reliable source of facts. 
Of course the Chinese Communist Party is uncomfortable with seeing its dirty laundry aired. The solution is easy. Instead of covering up the truth I suggest that the CCP should stop illegally persecuting its citizens. Then they wouldn't need to coerce a publicly funded broadcaster into propagating lies and censoring the truth. This is a shame for CBC which started out so well by showing Mr. Rowe's documentary.

Guest

Uncut Doc on UTube

The doc is uncut on UTube - but the PRC official is still in it though - that was CBC's doing from the start.  
 
http://www.youtube.com/user/canboguscorp

http://ahdu88.blogspot.com

Guest

Asian-American community activist

CBC was right to pull the film for review.  
 
For example are you aware of the fact Falun Gong's "organ" allegation David Kilgour is promoting, has been discredited by multiple undercover investigations? 
 
Here are US government and Chinese dissident investigations disproving it: 
 
1) http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html 
 
http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7) 
 
2) http://www.cicus.org/info_eng/artshow.asp?ID=6491 
 
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm

http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com

Guest

An observation and Re=4

There was no undercover investigation. If the Chinese government allow US to visit, that makes it on top of the cover not under it. 
 
They did not disproved it, but they did not find any evidence,  
 
1-U.S. Finds No Evidence of Alleged Concentration Camp in China 
 
However : 
Repression of Falun Gong, reports of organ harvesting still worry officials 
 
The second speaks for itself, someone view point and again no prove or disprove 
 
2-My viewpoint of the alleged "Sujiatun Camp" and how it is formed 
 
3- Is actually the same as #2 posted by another site. 
 
I don't know this happened or not, and I am truly hoping that did not happen, because this is so horrifying that one wishes to give the benefit of the doubt to humanity and believe that no human would act this barbaric.  
 
Having said that history has proven otherwise 

Guest

Asian-American community activist

The report from US embassy demonstrates ther was an undercover investigation conducted by US State Department: 
 
http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7)  
 
"American officials from theU.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as wellas the hospital site on two occasions — the first time >>>unannounced

http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com

Guest

Asian-American community activist

I did not make that up, I used your own link 
 
 
Officers and staff from the U.S. embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang have visited the area and the specific site on two separate occasions, the State Department said in a written response to a question taken at the April 14 daily press briefing. 
 
"In these visits the officers were allowed to tour the entire facility and grounds and found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital," the response said. 
 
Independent of these specific allegations, the United States remains concerned over China’s repression of Falun Gong practitioners and by reports of organ harvesting, the State Department said. 
 
bolds and italic are mine

Guest

Asian-American community activist

What you are quoting is the 2nd visit. 
 
The report from US embassy demonstrates stated they conducted two visits, the first was an unannounced *undercover investigation* conducted by US State Department:  
 
http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7)  
 
"American officials from theU.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as wellas the hospital site on two occasions — the first time *unannounced*" 
 
Long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu also sent investigator to China in secret on March 12th 2006, and he came to the same conclusion as US State Department.

http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com

Guest

Lets try this again

Here is my problem with your comments thus far: 
 
Quote:

---

 
For example are you aware of the fact Falun Gong's "organ" allegation David Kilgour is promoting, has been discredited by multiple undercover investigations?

---

 
 
There are few points above that are not accurate 
 
Fact: What fact? 
 
Multiple undercover investigations: Normally the multiple investigations are conducted by different organizations, with expertise on the issue. 
 
There was not multiple investigations. Was one by US which had happened in two different time frame. 
 
It was not undercover: One was unannounced, that does not mean undercover. 
 
The request from Red Cross, Amnesty International, Human rights watch and other NGOs to visit the prison was rejected and denied by Chinese government. 
 
Discredited: The only people that were allowed visit were from US state department and those same people expressed their concern over this issue

Guest

Charles Liu is here -- how surprising!

Very well said Shahram! Here are a couple more points that need clarifying: 
 
Charles Liu claimed: “– US State Department's undercover investigation found Falun Gong's Sujiatun/Auschwitz allegation not credible. [1]” 
 
Kilgour/Matas’ Response:  
· There is no ‘undercover investigation’ as we know of. The US state Department sent the US consular officers attend the show tour of the Sujiatun hospital escorted by the hospital authorities, weeks after the witness testimony about the organ harvesting was made public. 
 
· The witness said that her husband was conducting organ harvesting operations for two years ending in October 2003, more than two and a half years before the US State Department consular officials visited the hospital. What the officials saw in April 2006 tells us nothing about what was going on in 2002 and 2003 at that hospital. 
 
· Matas and Kilgour were well aware of the US state department ‘findings’, ie. they did not see/find anything. That proves nothing. Kilgour and Matas made their own conclusion based on the 33 kinds of evidence and all of them are verifiable. 
 
· The US state department, since the Kilgour/Matas report came out, did not comment on the Kilgour/Matas report and has certainly not expressed any doubt about it. 
 
About Harry Wu: David Kilgour interviewed Harry Wu during their investigation on the organ harvesting allegation and was well aware of Wu’s stance before they made the final conclusion. Kilgour/Matas made a response to Hurry Wu’s claims in appendix 16 of their revised report. See here 
 
And for anyone interested in knowing more about Charles Liu who discredits the Bloody Harvest report on the blogosphere 24/7, please read this piece written by Kevin Steel of the Western Standard and make your own opinion. 
See here

http://ahdu88.blogspot.com

Guest

Asian-American community activist

Of course, when those of us in the community stand up to Falun Gong's propaganda, Falun Gong operative like Epoch Times reporter people like Jana Shearer (quoted by WS) slander and intimidates critics with unfounded political accusation. 
 
I have document two other cases where Jana Shearer attacked other blogger who disagreed: 
 
http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com/2007/09/falun-gong-paper-epoch-time-caught.html 
 
As to the fact there were two separate undercover investigation, they are spelled out in the citation provided earlier: 
 
1) http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7)  
 
"American officials from theU.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as wellas the hospital site on two occasions — the first time *unannounced*"  
 
2) http://www.cicus.org/info_eng/artshow.asp?ID=6491 
 
"[Wu] asked the CIC reporters in China to make an investigation on the Sujiatun allegation. Since March 12, the investigators searched around the whole District of Sujiatun. On March 17, they even managed to visit the two military camps located in Sujiatun."

http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com

Guest

Asian-American community activist

In addition to undercover investigations conducted by US State Department and long time Chinese dissident Harry Wu, Kilguor report has also been reviewed and discredited by US congressional researchers. 
 
In a brief critical of China titled "The Collateral of Suppression", written for Senator Dianne Feinstein, member of US Congressional Executive Commission on China (CECC), congressional researchers Emma Ashburn and Thomas Lum were quoted.  
 
Here's the relevant excerpt:  
 
"Emma Ashburn, a research associate at the Congressional-Executive Committee on China (CECC), said that the Matas-Kilgour report really - offered nothing new - in terms of evidence on the matter of organ harvesting. The evidence they did collect, namely the phone calls and testimonies, were dubious in their objectivity. Specialist in Asian Affairs at the Congressional Research Service, Thomas Lum, noted that the evidence could have easily been distorted. The individuals calling the hospitals were all affiliated with FLG, and Lum said that it is unlikely for doctors and officials working for the state to casually divulge such sensitive and damaging information so easily. Moreover, Lum’s efforts to contact both the Chinese journalist and doctor’s wife have been fruitless, as FLG members direct all communications toward these individuals and they often do not respond. Harry Wu, a longtime political activist known for his hardline anti-PRC views, announced on August 9, 2006 that he would challenge the allegations made by FLG about targeted organ harvesting, especially the claim about the Sujiatun concentration camp. About the report, the South China Morning Post reports, “Mr. Wu, who has spent 15 years gathering evidence on the harvesting of organs from executed Chinese prisoners, said the information was based on the testimony of two witnesses, neither of whom had first-hand information. He believed the reports were fabricated.” Wu had tried to follow up with the witnesses just as Lum had - to the same futility. “In the face of these criticisms, including from even Wu, who formerly held friendly relations with FLG, all things considered the allegations FLG has made about a targeted campaign of state-sponsored genocide are most likely untrue."

http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com

Guest

Asian-American community activist

What we know about organ harvesting in China 
 
David Matas and David Kilgour 
Ottawa Citizen Special 
 
 
Wednesday, November 28, 2007 
 
Hey Charles, Everybody knows that Ashburn has investments in China, so she's probably siding with them to protect her own interests as many business people do. They choose to look the other way which is a pity. 
 
Anyhow, the recent article in the Ottawa Citizen will address most of your concerns. 
 
What we know about organ harvesting by D. Kilgour and D.Matas 
The argument by Glen McGregor in Saturday's Citizen is that the government of China must not be found guilty by world opinion to be pillaging organs from Falun Gong practitioners on the basis of circumstantial evidence, no matter how overwhelming. He wants to see a smoking scalpel, a confessing surgeon or a surviving organ "donor." 
 
 
Unfortunately, none of this kind of evidence is available. The medical professionals involved are complicit in murder and are not going to talk about it.  
 
 
There are no surviving organ donors from the Falun Gong community across China. 
 
 
The world is not a criminal courtroom, but our report, "Bloody Harvest," (which we prepared on a volunteer basis) concludes, based on evidence which is independently verifiable and available on our website (www.organharvestinvestigation.net), that the party-state in China and its agencies have over six years put to death a large but unknown number of Falun Gong prisoners of conscience and sold their vital organs for high prices, sometimes to "organ tourists" from abroad. 
 
 
Consider some of the avenues of proof and disproof available: 
 
 
China's government is a systematic and extensively documented human rights violator; the government has reduced financing to the health system substantially since 1980; organ transplants are a major source of new funds. 
 
 
The government has given the military the green light to raise money privately. The military is heavily involved in organ transplants. 
 
 
Corruption across China is a major problem, with the latest Transparency International ranking (2007) placing China behind 71 other countries in its corruption perception index.  
 
 
There is huge money to be made from transplants and the lack of effective controls over corruption. 
 
 
There is no self-governing disciplinary body for Chinese transplant ethics. Between 1999 and 2005, for example, China's minister of health (Zhang Wenkang) was president of the Chinese Medical Association (the sponsor of Mr. McGregor's trip to China).  
 
 
There has been no independence for the CMA from the party-state since Mao Zedong took power in 1949. 
 
 
The government has long taken the organs of criminals sentenced to death without their consent.  
 
 
The Falun Gong constitutes an additional prison population which the authorities vilify and dehumanize even more than executed prisoners sentenced to death for criminal offences. 
 
 
There is no organized system of organ donations in China. There is a strong cultural aversion to organ donation, which explains why there is such a shortage of organs for transplantation among the largest national population on earth. 
 
 
Hospital websites post self-incriminating information, boasting a matter of days and weeks for waiting times for all organs for large payments, ranging from $30,000 U.S. for corneas to $180,000 for liver-kidney combinations.  
 
 
In other countries, waits are months and years. 
Organ recipients we interviewed told us about the secrecy with which transplant surgery is undertaken and the heavy involvement of the military. 
 
 
The practice of selling organs in China was legal until July 1, 2006. The new law banning the selling of organs appears to be unenforced. 
 
 
The Communist Party of China sees Falun Gong as an ideological threat to its existence. Objectively, Falun Gong is a set of exercises with a spiritual component.  
 
 
Persecution of the Falun Gong since mid-1999 is a party-state decided and decreed policy. 
 
 
Falun Gong practitioners are victims of systematic torture and ill treatment in forced labour camps. Falun Gong practitioners have been arrested in huge numbers.  
 
 
They are often detained without trial or charge until they renounce their beliefs. There are thousands of named, identified Falun Gong practitioners who died as a result of torture. 
 
 
Many practitioners, in attempts to protect their families and communities, have not identified themselves once arrested. These unidentified individuals are a particularly vulnerable population. 
 
 
Falun Gong practitioners in custody are regularly blood tested and physically examined. Because they are also systematically tortured, this cannot be motivated by concerns over their health. 
 
 
Traditional sources of transplants -- executed prisoners, donors and the brain dead -- come nowhere near to explaining the total number of transplants across China.  
 
 
The only other identified source which can explain the skyrocketing transplant numbers is Falun Gong practitioners. 
 
 
In a few cases, between death and cremation, family members of Falun Gong practitioners were able to see the mutilated corpses of their loved ones. Organs had been removed. 
 
 
We had callers phoning hospitals across China posing as family members of persons who needed organ transplants. In a variety of locations, those who were called asserted that Falun Gong practitioners (reputedly healthy because of their exercise regime) were the source of the organs.  
 
 
We have recordings and telephone bills for these calls. 
 
 
We interviewed the ex-wife of a surgeon, who said her husband personally removed the corneas from approximately 2,000 anaesthetized Falun Gong prisoners in Sujiatun hospital in Shenyang City during the two-year period before October, 2003. Her testimony was credible to us. 
 
 
There have been two investigations independent from our own which have addressed the same question we have addressed, that is, whether there is organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners in China.  
 
 
One is by Dr. Kirk Allison of the University of Minnesota, another by a European Parliament vice-president, Edward McMillan-Scott. Both came to the same conclusion that we did. 
 
 
It is easy to take each element in isolation, and say that this element or that does not prove the claim. It is their combination which led us to the chilling conclusion to which we came. 
 
 
Our report has 25 recommendations for precautions which should be introduced to prevent the pillaging of organs from Falun Gong practitioners.  
 
 
Organ seizures from Falun Gong practitioners across China are happening. And they must stop. 
 
 
 
David Kilgour represented southeast Edmonton in Parliament for 27 years and was Secretary of State (Asia-Pacific), 2002-2003. David Matas is a Winnipeg-based international human rights lawyer. 
 
© The Ottawa Citizen 2007

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YouTube

YouTube, LLC.  
Took all the 6 parts of 
Beyond the Red Wall - the persecution of Falun Gong 
 
Off line

Guest

Ottawa Citizen article on veracity of Fa

Just want to follow up with you on additional reporting of this allegation. The Ottawa Citizen recently reported on it, including credibility of the Kilgour/Matas report: 
 
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=2c15d2f0-f0ab-4da9-991a-23e4094de949&p=3 
 
"The story noted that while the conclusions of Kilgour-Matas report have been widely circulated, they are not universally accepted. The Chinese government had dismissed their work as a fabrication, but more neutral criticism came from the U.S. Congressional Research Service, which concluded the report for the most part "did not bring forth new or independently-obtained testimony and relies largely upon the making of logical inferences."  
 
Also about Falun Gong's main allegation, Sujiatun: 
 
"From media reports, I had been led to believe that the Thrombosis Hospital was located in some distant outpost, where the awful crimes within could be conducted out of sight. When I visited the hospital in October, I was surprised to find it next to a busy street with snarling traffic, a constant flow of bicycles and pedestrians, and little security. Anyone could walk in off the street into the wards. The hospital is about a 30-minute drive from downtown Shenyang, an industrialized, but cosmopolitan, city of seven million. Its location in a bustling suburb made it seem an unlikely spot to conduct the methodical extermination of 2,000 human beings. If one were planning to set up a death camp and intending to do it discreetly, one could find better locations. An extermination centre on Merivale Road could operate more covertly." 
 
Please defend human rights with facts.

http://falungongpolitics.blogspot.com

Guest

About CHLIU528's spin

In case you guys haven't heard, here's the scoop on Charles Liu. Please don't waste you time reading his material which is purely fabricated to discredit organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners. 
 
Sowing Confusion; Embarrassed by reports of live organ harvesting, China's sympathizers launch a high-tech disinformation campaign 
 
April 9, 2007 Monday 
Final Edition 
Kevin Steel, Western Standard, Alberta 
 
He posts his messages everywhere under several different names on Internet blogs and discussion groups. He writes letters to the editor anywhere and sends e-mails to anyone--anyone who might take seriously shocking evidence that the Chinese government "harvests" and sells live organs from political prisoners. His main message is that the Falun Gong--the group which first brought evidence of live organ harvesting to light--and the Epoch Times newspaper that broke that story are spreading propaganda against China's Communist government. And he's not even Chinese. He is Charles Liu, a 40-year-old Taiwanese-born technology consultant who lives in Issaquah, Wash., and does business in China. 
 
Liu has been so active and so pro-Beijing in his writings that some Falun Gong supporters--in particular Epoch Times reporter Jana Shearer--have accused him of being an agent for the Chinese government, waging a disinformation campaign against them, trying to confuse people, and deliberately wasting everyone's time. 
 
It's a charge that upsets Liu, who dismisses it as "a bunch of kooky friends making unfounded accusations. It's just a bunch of blog BS." As for why he devotes so much energy to attacking the Falun Gong and the organ harvesting allegations, he says, "My position is that I simply don't agree with their brand of politics, because I observed their politics turning from anti-Communist party, to anti-China, . . . and recently it's morphed into this anti-Chinese hysteria and that's going to be hurting people," he says. As an Asian-American, he says he decided to speak up. 
 
He doesn't really explain, when asked, why he started a blog last year called "The Myth of Tiananmen Square Massacre" under the name of Bobby Fletcher (one of his online aliases, which he also uses to comment on the Western Standard's online blog). On that blog, he pushes the minimal 250 casualty figure that the Chinese government has always maintained died that night in 1989 (more reliable estimates put the figure at at least ten times that). 
 
Liu's actions mirror disinformation campaigns waged by the Chinese government in the past. Typically, these include the deliberate spreading of false or misleading facts to sow confusion or doubt among the conflicting accounts. The classic example is the Tiananmen Square massacre; the Chinese government has maintained that no one died in the square itself, that there was only pushing and shoving on the streets around the square, resulting in a few military casualties. Overseas, the CCP relies on its United Front Work department, part of the Chinese intelligence service, to propagate its message. During the Cold War, the Soviets employed many overseas flunkies through their Disinformation Department. 
 
Former Canadian MP David Kilgour, who co-authored a report on China's macabre organ harvesting industry, has received many propaganda e-mails from Liu. For instance, Liu has written repeatedly that a U.S. congressional committee looked into the organ harvesting allegations and found nothing. "[David] Matas and I gave evidence to that subcommittee and got support from both the Republican chairman and the Democratic vice-chair," says Kilgour. "I just came to the conclusion he was trying to waste my time, and I have other things to do." 
 
Winnipeg-based human rights lawyer, and Kilgour's co-author, David Matas, really doesn't know what to make of Liu. "I don't know who he is, but what he does is spend a lot of time replicating nonsense to defend the Chinese government," Matas says. 
 
The only concern Matas has is that Liu seems to know who he and Kilgour met with in the United States to discuss their report. Matas discovered Liu had sent e-mails to politicians--and their staff--prior to the meetings. "The only people who would have that information would potentially be the Chinese government. I can't imagine how Liu would know we were meeting with those people," Matas says. "We're not super-secretive, but you can't find information on the Internet or in any public place about who we're meeting with, where and when." He himself has received at least 10 e-mails from Liu, all of which he's ignored. Maybe Matas is onto something with that approach. 
 
GRAPHIC: Colour Photo: CP, Dave Cahn; David Kilgour (left) and David Matas, co-authors of a report on China's organ harvesting industry: How does Liu know who they're meeting with? ;

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